October 01, 2014, 09:02:40 PM

Author Topic: Why Canon doesn't Care about high MP photographers: a theory  (Read 10640 times)

tt

  • Guest
Re: Why Canon doesn't Care about high MP photographers: a theory
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2012, 02:39:42 AM »
Maybe because they don't talk about unannounced products?

If they were to do a concept cam that did say 39MP, it could do high MP pictures, and also oversample 4x potentially. And take the crown from the D800. Canon doesn't have to be in too big a rush.

They might not, but I guess we'll know a little bit more by Photokina.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Why Canon doesn't Care about high MP photographers: a theory
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2012, 02:39:42 AM »

Eric

  • Guest
Re: Why Canon doesn't Care about high MP photographers: a theory
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2012, 02:43:21 AM »
Afterall many features that are on DSLRs, even the idea of a single-lens reflex system aren't necessary for a landscape photographer, and some such as an SLR system even limit quality.

Ignore, for a moment, my lack of understanding on R&D, production, marketing, science, etc. to make this dream a reality.

Canon has amazing skills at cramming MP into small sensors. They also make beautiful landscape lenses like their wide angle TS-E's. It would be great if they would make a camera specific to the landscape artist that fits an artist's budget.

When I think about the camera I've used for my best landscape work: it had no weather sealing, nor was it rugged--in fact, it was made of wood; it had no autofocus--it had bellows (TS-E lenses can't autofocus); it had no pentaprism or mirrors--just had a groundglass; it had no high FPS--I had to load an 8x10 sheet of film for each exposure; it had no metering--I used a hand-held spot meter (tilting a TS-E screws up your meter reading); it had no video capabilities; the knurling of brass knobs was the only thing you could call ergonomics; you see where this is going. What it did have was amazing IQ potential.

I would love to see an affordable "wooden box" with a good live view 'groundglass' (laterally reversed image, please), a high MP sensor with high IQ at low ISOs, and an EF mount (but you can leave the electronics out of the mount). Kit it with a TS-E. Cut costs everywhere else. Single card slot, no JPEG engine, no hot shoe, etc. Yeah, they wouldn't sell many, but one engineer could design the thing in a day and take off early. You know they have the sensor on a shelf in R&D already.

Flake

  • Guest
Re: Why Canon doesn't Care about high MP photographers: a theory
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2012, 03:07:15 AM »
You can always go back to a monorail camera such as a Sinar, which can be picked up quite cheap, and a scanning digital back, and providing you're willing to not use the latest technology it's affordable.  Image quality which blows MF away, but unfortunately very inflexible, and it takes an age to shoot an image, movement in the image is impossible to capture.

Here's a web page of one of the manufacturers with some very nice images.

http://www.betterlight.com/

jrista

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 4734
  • POTATO
    • View Profile
    • Nature Photography
Re: Why Canon doesn't Care about high MP photographers: a theory
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2012, 03:13:47 AM »
Actually the most likely reason why Canon hasn't gone up in resolution is that it's pointless to do so. There are almost no Canon or Nikon lenses that can resolve more than 18 megapixels outside of the center quarter of the frame, even Zeiss lenses have issues. The only advantage over the overwhelming majority of the frame of going past 18 megapixels is the incidental benefits of capturing the gradiation between all the blury lines that you will be putting on the sensor. By capturing contrasting edges better you can help resolution a little.

This image illustrates the issue best. Versus a 21 MP sensor, a 36 megapixel sensor would be able to extract about 7% more resolution from a very high end lens simply by rendering the gradiation between the multi colored lines more cleanly.

So in conclusion the reason Canon doesn't go higher in megapixels is because nobody would notice difference and it would be a huge drain on storage and processing resources.

You do have a point to a degree with lens resolution.  However, I don't know where you get 18mp from.  Maybe you can share.

That would probably be 18mp APS-C, which is equivalent to 47mp FF. That is roughly 116lp/mm in terms of spatial resolution, which according to Canon's theoretical MTF's is supposedly the highest resolution their best L-series lenses can achieve. Real-world MTF's generated for the same Canon L-series lenses generally seem to indicate significantly lower resolution than that around the lenses peak (which tends to f/4-5.6 or so). I'm a bit skeptical of both tests myself (and growing more skeptical the more I research). Canon's are theoretical (essentially reproduction accuracy of 10lp/mm and 30lp/mm diagonal line pair test targets...FAR lower than the  levels modern sensors are capable of.) DXO's real-world lens tests only seem to address wide-open aperture performance, where resolution tends to be obliterated by optical aberrations that reduce resolution well below the diffraction limit. DXO tests are also limited by the spatial resolution of test cameras, which are often the key limiting factor in terms of resolution. Other lens resolution tests (such as TDP's ISO12233 charts, which are not exactly MTF's, although they aim to demonstrate the same thing) are often based on images captured by older, lower resolution sensors (where spatial resolution tops out at around 75 lp/mm...also well below the theoretical max at f/4...173lp/mm, and well below the theoretical max of an 18mp APS-C/47mp FF.)

The MTF's for Canon's lenses, which theoretically test 10lp/mm targets for contrast and 30lp/mm targets for sharpness (the two factors of spatial resolution), reproduction accuracy for their newest releases (i.e. 24-70 f/2.8 L II, 600mm f/4 L II, 500mm f/4 L II, 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS II, etc.) is approaching perfection. If we trust Canon's own word, their lenses are technically capable of resolving around 45mp worth of full-frame spatial resolution (center of lens...falloff to edge differs per lens, so I won't bother with edge resolution here). In my own comparisons of resolution between my 450D, which is 12.2mp (96lp/mm), and my 7D which has that 18mp sensor capable of 116lp/mm, there is a significant improvement with my best lenses (I use the 100mm f/2.8 macro lens, as its optically superb and produces excellent...although not perfect...resolution at f/4). I'm not sure I'd say its capable of 116lp/mm at f/4, but its certainly capable of more than 96lp/mm. I know the 135mm f/2 L @ f/4 is a slightly sharper lens than the 100mm f/2.8 Macro, so I believe it is indeed possible for Canon's best of the best lenses to reproduce 45mp FF worth of spatial resolution. The likes of the 500mm and 600mm f/4 L II lenses could quite possible be near-perfect optics (one would certainly hope for over ten grand a lens), capable of resolving nearly 173lp/mm wide open. At that level, you could have a 103.4mp FF sensor.
My Photography
Current Gear: Canon 5D III | Canon 7D | Canon EF 600mm f/4 L IS II | EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L IS | EF 16-35mm f/2.8 L | EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro | 50mm f/1.4
New Gear List: SBIG STT-8300M | Canon EF 300mm f/2.8 L II

jrista

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 4734
  • POTATO
    • View Profile
    • Nature Photography
Re: Why Canon doesn't Care about high MP photographers: a theory
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2012, 03:19:48 AM »
With all of the talk on the Internet about how bad the DR/IQ was with the 5D Mark II, it would seem that Canon focused on fixing those problems rather than the problem of not having enough megapixels.

I hope they did, but an early result showed 5D2 ISO 100 read noise 6.1 ADU and 5D3 ISO 100 read noise 6.0 ADU. Not much of an improvement if the result hold up.

You really need to stop replicating that everywhere unless you are willing to back it up with links to your reference material, forum topics, articles, etc. There is nothing to indicate that the 5D III has ANYWHERE NEAR the amount of read noise as the 5D II, which had pretty bad low-ISO read noise at over 27 e-.
My Photography
Current Gear: Canon 5D III | Canon 7D | Canon EF 600mm f/4 L IS II | EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L IS | EF 16-35mm f/2.8 L | EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro | 50mm f/1.4
New Gear List: SBIG STT-8300M | Canon EF 300mm f/2.8 L II

psolberg

  • 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 483
    • View Profile
Re: Why Canon doesn't Care about high MP photographers: a theory
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2012, 08:10:17 AM »
I think the bigger issue is canon doesn't have much choice when it comes to what you get. look at their full frame lineup all custered at 18-22MP. It is practically all the same.

nikon's full frame lineup
12-16-24-36 MP.


PhilDrinkwater

  • Guest
Re: Why Canon doesn't Care about high MP photographers: a theory
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2012, 10:26:30 AM »
I'm not sure it's what people think it is:
* Resolving power of lenses - will most really be able to make the most of the sensor?
* Diffraction on the D800 will start at f8, which reduces the sharpness. Landscape photographers (I believe) tend to shoot at f11 a lot?
* The resolution of the 5diii is exactly 4 times that of HD resolution. That can't be a coincidence...

.. and finally, in terms of resolution, the D800 is only something like 30% more than the 5diii.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Why Canon doesn't Care about high MP photographers: a theory
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2012, 10:26:30 AM »

awinphoto

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2000
    • View Profile
    • AW Photography
Re: Why Canon doesn't Care about high MP photographers: a theory
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2012, 10:33:59 AM »
While I dont know and probably will never know, I would presume that canon polled a lot of it's top pro's who they figure were their target audience was and figured out what their needs and wish list were...  I've received a few impromptu surveys via email from Canon on satisfaction of their products and I would guess they figured they vast majority of their target audience needed higher IQ, higher ISO, and MP was fine where it was.  I could be wrong but I dont think theres a conspiracy. 
Canon 5d III, Canon 24-105L, Canon 17-40L, Canon 70-200 F4L, Canon 100L 2.8, Canon 85 1.8, 430EX 2's and a lot of bumps along the road to get to where I am.

AJ

  • 7D
  • *****
  • Posts: 410
    • View Profile
Re: Why Canon doesn't Care about high MP photographers: a theory
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2012, 11:14:00 AM »
It may be premature to say Canon doesn't care about high MP shooters. Just because the 5D mkIII wasn't the high MP body some were hoping for doesn't mean that Canon doesn't have something up its sleeve.
Good theory.

Maybe their 36 mpix sensor got delayed because of the tsunami and floods.  Maybe it's still coming.  5Dx?

I would think that if you mount a lens like 17 TS, you'll resolve more lines than the same lens mounted on a 22 mpix cam.


moreorless

  • 5D Mark III
  • ******
  • Posts: 660
    • View Profile
Re: Why Canon doesn't Care about high MP photographers: a theory
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2012, 11:37:25 AM »
This is just a theory.  And let me first off say that I am a landscape photographer.  I shoot some news and weddings, but primarily landscape.  And I'll say that I was disappointed that the 5Diii wasn't higher MP.

I wonder if the reason that almost all the new and updated features in the new 5D are geared for wedding, sports, nature, news shooters because these are the types of shooters that DSLRs are geared toward naturally.  Would it be true that most studio and landscape shooters that make the serious dough use medium format digital and full frame film.  Where those who are on more limited budgets settle for DSLRs as a budget option.  Afterall many features that are on DSLRs, even the idea of a single-lens reflex system aren't necessary for a landscape photographer, and some such as an SLR system even limit quality.  Aren't optics more difficult when needing to put a mirror in the way of the lens and sensor vs. a rangefinder system.

I'm not saying that professional landscapers and studio shooters don't use DSLRs and some make a good chunk of change.  But in general DSLRs are designed for the exact audience that the new 5D seems to be geared for.

So I think that canon looks at the bottom line and realizes that no matter how many people want more megapixels there is simply a bigger market that wants low ISO, FPS, etc.

My hope is that Canon comes out with a camera that does fit that niche market.  I'd pre-order it in a second.

Like I said, I'm just proposing a theory.  Anyone have thoughts?

Most MF camera are DSLR's aswell of course but I do think its a good point, the 1DX is arguebley the best high end FPS/AF/ISO tool money can buy with the 5D mk3 not far behind so they tap into a higher end market. High megapixel FF DSLR's on the other hand are operating in the middle ground between normal FF/Crop ones and MF.

Ther 1Ds mk3 wasnt a great seller not just due to competision from the 5D mk2 but also from MF like the 645D coming down in price. Nikon's D3X wasnt a great seller either and that lacked any competision from a cheaper Nikon SLR with the same sensor afterall.

The recent interviews with Canon on this subject did seem to give the impression that it was going to be a "wait and see" with reguards the D800's performance.

I'm actually supprized that there hasnt been some form of mirrorless MF camera(well besides scanning backs) since to me that seems like a great fit just as it was for MF rangefinders and film. The savings in size/weight/cost obviously get greater the larger the sensor and if your dealing with landscape and studio users alot of the lenses are going to be in the wide/normal range where mirrorless could save space there too. The weakness in AF is less of a problem for such users and with an EVF not being able to see the effects of filters isnt a problem anymore either

jrista

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 4734
  • POTATO
    • View Profile
    • Nature Photography
Re: Why Canon doesn't Care about high MP photographers: a theory
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2012, 11:38:41 AM »
* The resolution of the 5diii is exactly 4 times that of HD resolution. That can't be a coincidence...

Actually, the 5D III is only 3 times that of 1920x1080 HD resolution (horizontally, its about 3.5 times vertically.) You would need a 39.3mp camera to be exactly 4 times HD resolution horizontally (which would be about 4.7 times vertically.) That would be why there are rumors about a Canon ~40mp HDSLR, since that would support true 4:2:2.
My Photography
Current Gear: Canon 5D III | Canon 7D | Canon EF 600mm f/4 L IS II | EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L IS | EF 16-35mm f/2.8 L | EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro | 50mm f/1.4
New Gear List: SBIG STT-8300M | Canon EF 300mm f/2.8 L II

PhilDrinkwater

  • Guest
Re: Why Canon doesn't Care about high MP photographers: a theory
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2012, 11:42:18 AM »
* The resolution of the 5diii is exactly 4 times that of HD resolution. That can't be a coincidence...

Actually, the 5D III is only 3 times that of 1920x1080 HD resolution (horizontally, its about 3.5 times vertically.) You would need a 39.3mp camera to be exactly 4 times HD resolution horizontally (which would be about 4.7 times vertically.) That would be why there are rumors about a Canon ~40mp HDSLR, since that would support true 4:2:2.
Oops. I meant 3. Just typed it wrong..

Radiating

  • 7D
  • *****
  • Posts: 336
    • View Profile
Re: Why Canon doesn't Care about high MP photographers: a theory
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2012, 01:03:38 AM »
You do have a point to a degree with lens resolution.  However, I don't know where you get 18mp from.

It's where the resolution of most lenses tends to settle around  over the majority of the frame (off center) based on resolutions tests. It's a very rough figure that will vary +/-30%


Quote
Maybe you can share.  And I'm sure this particular topic has been covered to high heaven in the past.  If what you say is true, then if I cropped a 5Dii to a 1.6 image, and compared it to a 7D image at full size there wouldn't be any resolution difference. 

This topic has been covered in a bit of a misguided way, using crop sensors as a bassis for analysis is NOT a good way of doing it. The frame of a APS-C crop sensor only covers 30% of the frame of a full frame.

The very corner resolution on a crop frame is going to be the CENTER resolution at the very center on a full frame. If we use a 50D and 5DII as examples, and the 24-105mm F4.0 IS then at 24mm f/8.0 it resolves 3400 lp/ph on full frame and 3600 lp/ph on crop at around the same position.

In other words. At 24 Megapixels it resolves  92% of the available resolution but at 39 megapixels it only resolves 72% at the center. At the corners at 39 megapixels it's using only 60% of the resolution.

The center resolution of the 24-105mm at 24mm f/8.0 is therefore around 22-24 MP (in terms of pixel density), the mid frame 17-19MP and the corners 15-18 MP.

The 24-105mm is clearly outresolved by the sensor and the gains from a 39 megapixel sensor would all be incidental. You're doubling the sensor resolution but only gaining 10% more final resolution, sure it's a difference but some would say this is wasteful.



Quote
But I find from my non-scientific tests that the 7D resolves sharper at it's full field of view as compared to a 5Dii that's been cropped to the 1.6 field of view.  Also I'll point out that there are the exceptional lenses, TS-E 17mm and 24mm, which many landscape photographers use all the time, but are exceptional...meaning they are the exception to most photographers.  These two lenses I have no doubt could resolve quite satisfactorily on the edges on a 36mp+ sensor.  Ok, I have some doubt because I've never seen it.  But I wouldn't be surprised.  hows that for scientific?!

There is no doubt that there are a few gems in the Canon line-up that could handle a 39+ megapixel sensor. The issue that I'm presenting is that the majority of Canon's lenses would be wasted on such a sensor with only minor incidental gains. A sensor over 22 MP would have benefited a few niches while burdening everyone else with a doubling of processing overhead. Some would argue that this would be worth it, others would not welcome it.




Quote
Also, you have to look at the bayer pattern and see how the different color channels resolve.  Green channel is always perceptibly sharper than the other two channels because it has twice the photosites.  So hypothetically if you doubled the number of all the photosites, then you may have far more green than you need, but then you have red and blue photosites that are as sharp as the green was.

Right I'm not denying there are many incidental benefits to higher resolution. I'm just trying to outline the argument.

Hope that helps.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Why Canon doesn't Care about high MP photographers: a theory
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2012, 01:03:38 AM »

sandymandy

  • 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 599
    • View Profile
Re: Why Canon doesn't Care about high MP photographers: a theory
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2012, 02:31:58 AM »
Well just buy urself some canned food and ask urself if it really needs a high MP photo on it :P
I think really high MP is a quite special area. High MP is good unless "normal" people cant make use of it anymore. Then it becomes special and doesnt sell so well anymore imho. And i guess all camera manufacturers make most of their money with their cheapcompact cam/entry dslr cameras. I might be wrong. Plus i think ppl are more educated about high mp doesnt make a good photo.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 02:33:39 AM by sandymandy »

bycostello

  • 1D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 910
    • View Profile
    • London Weddings
Re: Why Canon doesn't Care about high MP photographers: a theory
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2012, 06:26:20 AM »
if high MP and landscape is your bag, you prob wanna go to large format cameras....

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Why Canon doesn't Care about high MP photographers: a theory
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2012, 06:26:20 AM »