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Author Topic: Are we suckers, or smart business people?  (Read 3121 times)

steven63

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Are we suckers, or smart business people?
« on: March 13, 2012, 03:49:21 PM »
Granted, there are a fair amount of persons who frequent this site that make their living from their camera.  Granted, many of us do not.

So, knowing that some of us require (or think we require) the latest, greatest invention from the optical Gods and eagerly wait to buy up their latest offering I ask, are we suckers or are we great business minds?

Here is why I ask:

I've been pondering the improvements to the 5dmiii over its predecessor and while they seem to be improvements in the areas people have asked (begged) for, I wonder, just exactly, what it is we have been offered by Canon.

- almost identical sensor (don't kid yourself, 21 mpx to 22 mpx is an almost identical sensor), with yet-to-be-determined improved performance (keep in mind all the preorders based on the 'hope' of improved performance).

- better AF.  Maybe as good as the 1dmiv, maybe not.

- more focus points.  More than the 1dmiv, but not as many cross types (? - not sure about that didn't research it very deep).

- a couple more fps.

- another card slot.

Pretty much in a nutshell those are the improvements from the 5dmii.  Give or take a minor change here and there.  But pretty much....that's it.

Let's break it down:

- same sensor:  Maybe some improvement in DR and ISO performance and probably will be.  But with four years of development this should be a given and not an assumption or 'hope so' moment for the buyers.  Even Canon is not releasing some vital data.  So, the jury is still out on something that should have been a no-brainer.

- better AF: if it is as good as the 1dmiv fine.  four years of development has resulted in a hand-me-down system well weathered from the 1d line.  Tried and true, but no technological breakthrough here is what I am thinking and if I am right, then no cost to research and development; just recycled technology repackaged into a new skin.

- more focus points: perhaps the greatest advancement of the 5dmiii?  Perhaps some groundbreaking advancement here?  Or perhaps a logical extension of the 7d system?  OR perhaps some hybrid between the 7d and the 1dmiv systems?  But I am thinking it's likely a watered down version of the 1dx system - something already developed in the 1dx and used as a vanilla extract for the 5dmiii as a way to boost sales without extra costs into R&D.

- more fps: no technological breakthrough here.  Not much more than just another vanilla extract, hand-me-down system from the 1dmiv in front of a FF sensor.  Nothing to write home about.

- another card slot:  Again, meh....nothing special and another hand-me-down from the 1dmiv.

I have no doubt this camera is going to make a ton of cash for Canon.  Most of what they threw into it is old technology handed down from the 1d line from 3 years or so ago.  Yet they are charging a premium price for it.  So I have to ask you, after looking at what is being offered, what camp would you put yourself into?  The smart business person camp or the I'm a sucker camp?


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Are we suckers, or smart business people?
« on: March 13, 2012, 03:49:21 PM »

V8Beast

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Re: Are we suckers, or smart business people?
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2012, 04:06:25 PM »
I've never claimed to be anything other than a sucker ;D For 5DII owners, I can see how this would be a difficult decision. Maybe I'm just cheap, but I've always been a proponent of buying bodies that are a 1-2 generations old, or upgrading every other generation.

I'm very eager for my 5DIII to arrive, but I haven't purchased a new body since my old 20D way back in 2005. Since then, I've had a 5DC, 1DIIn and a 1DsIII, which were all purchased second hand in great shape at a fraction of what they cost new. It's not like older bodies stop taking great images just because a newer body has been released. And if you buy used and sell used, you hardly lose any money.   

So if you aren't impressed with the 5DIII, don't buy it. I felt the same way about the 5DII when it came out, so decided to hang on to my 5DC and wait for the 5DIII before even thinking about upgrading.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 04:10:10 PM by V8Beast »

Tijn

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Re: Are we suckers, or smart business people?
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2012, 04:14:22 PM »
If its ISO performance is (close to) a stop better, and at a slightly higher resolution at that, it's not the same sensor. Period.
Autofocus is vastly improved from the 5d2. May not be quite the thing in the 1D X, but it gets pretty darn close for half the money. Since the 5d3 is a 5d2 upgrade, that's what you should be comparing it to (as you're whining about them not really being "upgrades".

Small upgrade? "Meh, nothing revolutionary."
Massive upgrade, but not quite the full package as in the pro bodies? "Meh, it's less good than the best AF system".

Stop whining! It's a good upgrade worth it for plenty of people, though it may not be a big upgrade on all aspects.

iso79

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Re: Are we suckers, or smart business people?
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2012, 04:25:03 PM »
If you can afford it, get it. If not, then don't. Simple as that. If you really want it but can't afford it now, start saving up for it. It's not going anywhere. By the time you have enough money for it, there might be a slight price drop.
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awinphoto

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Re: Are we suckers, or smart business people?
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2012, 04:42:40 PM »
I make 100% of my living using my camera (as well as my clients cameras if they require me to do so).  Anywho, AF improvements is crucial to me... the 7d, while not a steller low light camera, I could take in a marginal or dark room and have it nail focus... the 5d2, i have little shot in hell getting my kids in focus when in motion.  1 out of 5 keepers wont cut it... According to chuck w, the 5d3 AND 1dx has more cross sensors than the 1d4 provided you are using modern F4 or faster lenses... even if you are only shooting F5.6 lenses, it has I think close to the same amount as the 1d4.  Also the tracking algoithims for the 1d4 is al servo II, 5d3 and 1dx is al servo III... Of course this all is to be determined in real world testing, but from what I heard, that is one heck of an improvement. 

ISO, especially High ISO is supposed to be 1-2 stops better... This, of course, will be subject to testing, but for me, I've never been an ISO freak, so I'm happy with as good if not a hair cleaner...  What can I say, i'm from the film days so this is head and shoulders better than high ISO back then...

Sensor... not bothered... 21MP is fine for me...  It could be the same as the 5d2 for what I could have cared... I've never had a client complaining about resolution, DR, ISO, etc...  Those are more personal quirks, but clients typically aren't as discerning. 

I could see the arguement of having the raw+jpeg and jpegs shoved on the SD, but i personally would have preferred the 2 CF, but that's not in the cards for now. 

What does sell it is customization... MFN button, dual axis level, mode dial lock, better on/off location, better LV/Movie buttons, weather seals...  To me those are worth their weight in gold. 
Canon 5d III, Canon 24-105L, Canon 17-40L, Canon 70-200 F4L, Canon 100L 2.8, Canon 85 1.8, 430EX 2's and a lot of bumps along the road to get to where I am.

PhilDrinkwater

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Re: Are we suckers, or smart business people?
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2012, 05:01:28 PM »
If you're going to compare, you have to be fair:

* New body with better weather sealing
* New card slot (this is a real biggie for the pro market)
* Brand new nearly 1dx focus system with new tracking system and 5 double cross points! It should be better than the 1div, except in speed of motor drive.
* Nearly 1 stop better ISO (that puts it level with the d3s and virtually at the new d4, so it would seem)
* Slightly larger screen to fit the photo
* Expanded EC options
* 50% more FPS
* Microadjustment at both wide and zoom end of lenses
* New (if not as good as 1dx) metering system from 7d
* More shots per battery
* New battery grip with new buttons (I believe)
* 100% viewfinder
* Faster shutter & faster Xsync
* Electronic level
* Improved HDR / bracketing options
* Improved auto ISO
* Silent shooting
* Better video options including reduced moire (not my area so I don't know much)
* ... and I bet I forgot some

The only thing that **hasn't** changed much is the amount of MP and DR!

I honestly think that if Canon would have put another 4 MP in no one would be complaining but people have it in their heads that more MP is better and that's all they'll pay for. It's honestly crazy...

It's a miles, Miles, MILES better camera than the 5dii. Cameras aren't just about sensors y'know... :)
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 05:34:06 PM by PhilDrinkwater »

Seamus

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Re: Are we suckers, or smart business people?
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2012, 05:24:01 PM »
+1 Phil and awin

It's important to look at the whole package. Good list (+gapless microlenses), there really has been a lot of changes. I am really excited for the mkiii, can't wait to try it out!

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Re: Are we suckers, or smart business people?
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2012, 05:24:01 PM »

digicV

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Re: Are we suckers, or smart business people?
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2012, 05:27:35 PM »
Do I have to be one of them? I buy - because I like. Why rationalize if you can afford it ? Why justify - my wife is happy if I am happy. The 330i can get me to work but I drive a 750i - so I am a sucker ? What the -- is this the USSR ?

unfocused

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Re: Are we suckers, or smart business people?
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2012, 05:41:44 PM »
I don't fault the OP for posing the question. It's a legitimate issue to raise.

I really think the answer depends on the actual results that the camera delivers. And, at this point, I am not aware of any thorough, independent testing.

If, it delivers as promised then I would go back to a question I posed shortly after the announcement: has Canon significantly extended the life cycle of DSLRs with this camera. We always want something new and better, but honestly, if this camera really delivers as promised, I'd be hard-pressed to think of any features/performance I would want/need in a future model. (Aside from the fact that I personally prefer an APS-C sensor, so I'm waiting for the time when the 7D achieves similar levels of performance.)

We are used to a three-year cycle for DSLRs, but in the film days, the cycle was more like 10 years (Canon originally promised that the F1 would NOT change for a decade). If the 5DIII delivers, I could see it doubling the life cycle for DSLRs. If that's the case, the marginal cost might be more than offset by the life cycle of the body.
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awinphoto

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Re: Are we suckers, or smart business people?
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2012, 06:09:05 PM »
If, it delivers as promised then I would go back to a question I posed shortly after the announcement: has Canon significantly extended the life cycle of DSLRs with this camera. We always want something new and better, but honestly, if this camera really delivers as promised, I'd be hard-pressed to think of any features/performance I would want/need in a future model. (Aside from the fact that I personally prefer an APS-C sensor, so I'm waiting for the time when the 7D achieves similar levels of performance.)

We are used to a three-year cycle for DSLRs, but in the film days, the cycle was more like 10 years (Canon originally promised that the F1 would NOT change for a decade). If the 5DIII delivers, I could see it doubling the life cycle for DSLRs. If that's the case, the marginal cost might be more than offset by the life cycle of the body.


That's what i'm curious about... if it's as good as advertised, if the AF is up to snuff and it really is as good as we can expect, i would be hardpressed to really try to expand upon it's capabilities, however here would be my thoughts...

1) add a flash commander (D700 and 800 has one...)
2) 61 AF points very well could be "so 2012" in 3-4 years... at that time we will need more, i mean seriously (tongue in cheek) eye control could be the next demand
3) drum roll please.... more MP
4) 4K video
5) expanded HDR, perhaps 5 shot?  Maybe even pano stitch in camera?
6) more FPS... did you see that new rebel style sony camera... can pump out 10 FPS or 12 FPS with tele mode and a transparent mirror for continual focus during shooting...
7) 1d series weather sealing
8) voice dictation and more touch sensitive controls such as the touch sensitive wheel for the 5d3 during video capture. 
Canon 5d III, Canon 24-105L, Canon 17-40L, Canon 70-200 F4L, Canon 100L 2.8, Canon 85 1.8, 430EX 2's and a lot of bumps along the road to get to where I am.

wickidwombat

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Re: Are we suckers, or smart business people?
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2012, 06:28:50 PM »
If you're going to compare, you have to be fair:

* New body with better weather sealing
* New card slot (this is a real biggie for the pro market)
* Brand new nearly 1dx focus system with new tracking system and 5 double cross points! It should be better than the 1div, except in speed of motor drive.
* Nearly 1 stop better ISO (that puts it level with the d3s and virtually at the new d4, so it would seem)
* Slightly larger screen to fit the photo
* Expanded EC options
* 50% more FPS
* Microadjustment at both wide and zoom end of lenses
* New (if not as good as 1dx) metering system from 7d
* More shots per battery
* New battery grip with new buttons (I believe)
* 100% viewfinder
* Faster shutter & faster Xsync
* Electronic level
* Improved HDR / bracketing options
* Improved auto ISO
* Silent shooting
* Better video options including reduced moire (not my area so I don't know much)
* ... and I bet I forgot some

The only thing that **hasn't** changed much is the amount of MP and DR!

I honestly think that if Canon would have put another 4 MP in no one would be complaining but people have it in their heads that more MP is better and that's all they'll pay for. It's honestly crazy...

It's a miles, Miles, MILES better camera than the 5dii. Cameras aren't just about sensors y'know... :)

yeah what he said!
I cant emphasise enought the importance of a good viewfinder thought, I am hoping the mk3 is a step up from the 2 but i dont thinkits going to approach the fantastic viewfinders on the 1 series unfortunately
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Re: Are we suckers, or smart business people?
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2012, 08:28:34 PM »
- almost identical sensor (don't kid yourself, 21 mpx to 22 mpx is an almost identical sensor), with yet-to-be-determined improved performance
Ha, ha, what?  "Yet to be determined?"  Did you look at any of the samples yet?

I'm going with "pro troll" :)

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Re: Are we suckers, or smart business people?
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2012, 01:49:33 AM »
- almost identical sensor (don't kid yourself, 21 mpx to 22 mpx is an almost identical sensor), with yet-to-be-determined improved performance
Ha, ha, what?  "Yet to be determined?"  Did you look at any of the samples yet?

I'm going with "pro troll" :)

I gave up looking at samples after the second bunch came out, I'll wait till i get mine in a week or so and make up my own mind.
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Re: Are we suckers, or smart business people?
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2012, 01:49:33 AM »

briansquibb

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Re: Are we suckers, or smart business people?
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2012, 04:52:21 AM »
Think of 5d3 as a small bodies ff 1D4 and the the pricing makes more sense

dilbert

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Re: Are we suckers, or smart business people?
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2012, 04:59:53 AM »
If you're going to compare, you have to be fair:
...
* Nearly 1 stop better ISO (that puts it level with the d3s and virtually at the new d4, so it would seem)
...
The only thing that **hasn't** changed much is the amount of MP and DR!

The ISO improvement appears to only be with in-camera JPEG output.

That means that there is non improvement in the sensor itself and thus no improvement for people that shoot raw.

Thus, with the exception of fixing the banding problem with the 5DII, there has effectively been no improvement in the sensor from the 5DII to the 5DIII. Thus there is little to no improvement in image quality for anyone that uses the 5DII today to shoot raw.

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Re: Are we suckers, or smart business people?
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2012, 04:59:53 AM »