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Author Topic: Canon is just stupid - 5D3s AutoISO still crappy - EMAIL THEM HOW IT SHOULD WORK  (Read 15158 times)

JR

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Re: Canon is just stupid (still no usable auto iso in 5D III)
« Reply #60 on: March 15, 2012, 10:15:20 PM »
You are correct on your assumptions...  I think the flaming is that the intentionally want to over or under expose using exposure compensation. It is allowed in app priority or shutter priority but not manual. This maybe I can understand but auto settings 1/250 limit I find silly.

Using M mode is the way to go - it does work and is proven in the 7D and the 1D4. Setting the shutter speed and the aperture gives the best composition to image, auto iso ensures the right amount of light gets in.

Makes perfect sense now.  For my typical use, these new feature will be perfect!  Cant wait to put my 5D mkII for sale now!!!!!!!!!!!  :P :P :P
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Re: Canon is just stupid (still no usable auto iso in 5D III)
« Reply #60 on: March 15, 2012, 10:15:20 PM »

wickidwombat

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Re: Canon is just stupid (still no usable auto iso in 5D III)
« Reply #61 on: March 15, 2012, 10:18:31 PM »
I posted this in the other thread

If in M mode the EC gets applied to the iso so when Auto ISO is enabled then
EC is also enabled and acts on ISO only if auto ISO is disabled the EC is disabled as normal
it would be a pretty powerfull function IMO
helps keep control over Exposure and keeps the lowest iso but allowing flexability in changing light
Auto anything only ever works where scene metering is quite balanced

Being able to more accurately control the auto iso using EC applied to the iso would be awesome for these scenes where the standard metering gets all screwy
I totally see where LTRLI is coming from with this, it should not be too hard to implement through firmware

BTW i'm not complaining just saying it would be a cool feature
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 10:29:31 PM by wickidwombat »
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jrista

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Re: Canon is just stupid (still no usable auto iso in 5D III)
« Reply #62 on: March 15, 2012, 10:21:10 PM »
Who needs the facts when we have so many learned opinionators ??

HAH! Seriously. Its become a morbid Canon death fest around here with all the complainers coming out of the woodwork to bitch about everything from low ISO DR, noise of all kinds at all levels, the "limitations" of 22 megapixels, the supposedly "TERRIBLE" Auto ISO setting capabilities, etc. etc.

As far as I can tell, not a single one of the people complaining actually have a 5D III in their hands (which, if they did, I would be willing to bet good money they would be drooling and oogling rather than complaining), and the few who have actually held one and tried them out at one event or another have appeared to be thoroughly impressed DESPITE the apparently heinous deficiencies it has in comparison to the D800 and, well, just about every other freaking camera on earth.

Like...wow.

briansquibb

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Re: Canon is just stupid (still no usable auto iso in 5D III)
« Reply #63 on: March 15, 2012, 10:28:55 PM »
Who needs the facts when we have so many learned opinionators ??

HAH! Seriously. Its become a morbid Canon death fest around here with all the complainers coming out of the woodwork to bitch about everything from low ISO DR, noise of all kinds at all levels, the "limitations" of 22 megapixels, the supposedly "TERRIBLE" Auto ISO setting capabilities, etc. etc.

As far as I can tell, not a single one of the people complaining actually have a 5D III in their hands (which, if they did, I would be willing to bet good money they would be drooling and oogling rather than complaining), and the few who have actually held one and tried them out at one event or another have appeared to be thoroughly impressed DESPITE the apparently heinous deficiencies it has in comparison to the D800 and, well, just about every other freaking camera on earth.

Like...wow.

I think the whiners are trying to live up to the name on their cameras - REBELS ;D ;D ;D

briansquibb

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Re: Canon is just stupid (still no usable auto iso in 5D III)
« Reply #64 on: March 15, 2012, 10:35:14 PM »
You should give up photography if you use auto-iso.

Oh dear me, let me hunt around for the light meter and take a reading of the peregrine ...

... its OK  ;D ;D ;D real photographers dont take pictures of peregrines  :o :o :o

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon is just stupid (still no usable auto iso in 5D III)
« Reply #65 on: March 15, 2012, 10:41:32 PM »
@jrista - I see you added the bit about the minimum shutter speed to your post, which was the OP's complaint, wanting a higher min shutter speed than 1/250 s. As you point out (and as Canon states), this feature was added to address a specific issue with Auto ISO, namely that in Av (and P) mode with Auto ISO, shutter speed has priority - the camera will drop the shutter to 1/focal length (1/1.6xFL for APS-C), and then start raising ISO.  The problem is that with wide angle lenses like my 35L, it ends up at a shutter speed too slow to stop involuntary subject motion. This feature solves that issue nicely.

It's not, nor is it intended to be, fully customizable. Funny how no one's started a thread on the corollary - specifying a minimum aperture in Tv mode with Auto ISO, where with a fast f/1.2 or f/1.4 lens, the aperture will open to max before ISO is raised, leading to a DoF that's too thin - setting a 'floor' of f/1.8 or f/2 would be quite useful.  The answer to that was given earlier in this contentious thread - if you want full-range selectable min and max for ISO, shutter speed, and aperture, get a 1-series body like the 1D X.
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LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon is just stupid (still no usable auto iso in 5D III)
« Reply #66 on: March 15, 2012, 10:51:52 PM »
Well, as you may well be aware, like the 7D, if you shoot in manual, set your shutter and app and auto iso, you dont have to really worry about that, do you?  Or if shutter is of priority, shoot in TV, set your shutter, and let the camera do the aperture and auto ISO for you... it really isn't that hard.  Lastly, I hope your not accusing me for his 6:1 ratio... I haven't given any smites to him that i'm aware of.  I dont smite people because they think differently or give bad advice, I smite when things get personal.

As already said.... and if you need EC?

You correct it in post

Hah so now the whole crowd that was telling those asking for more dynamic range nonsense about how you just need to learn to expose correctly now proposes that people don't even bother with exposure, just let it do what it does and fix it in post? Why have M mode than at all? Just fix it in post right?

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Re: Canon is just stupid (still no usable auto iso in 5D III)
« Reply #66 on: March 15, 2012, 10:51:52 PM »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon is just stupid (still no usable auto iso in 5D III)
« Reply #67 on: March 15, 2012, 10:54:12 PM »
and??

what does that prove but our point that it forces you to pick a min speed no faster than 1/250th and that EC won't work in M mode, our very points


From the horses mou...erm, manuals...pages:



Pg. 56:
Auto ISO Range: Minimum 100; Maximum 12800



Pg. 125:
ISO Auto

If the ISO speed is set to "A" (Auto), the actual ISO speed to be set will be displayed when you press the shutter button halfway. As indicated below, the ISO speed will be set automatically to suit the shooting mode:

Shooting ModeISO Speed Setting
A+Automatically set within ISO 100 - 12800
P/ Tv/ Av/ MAutomatically set within ISO 100 - 26500 *1
BFixed at ISO 400 *1
With flashFixed at ISO 400 *1 *2 *3

*1: The actual ISO speed range depends on the [Minimum] and [Maximum] settings set in [Auto ISO Range].
*2: If fill flash will result in overexposure, ISO 100 or a higher ISO will be set.
*3: When using bounce flash with an external Speedlite in the <A+> and <P> modes, the ISO speed will automatically be set to ISO 400 - 1600.



As I get page 125, notes 1 and 2 indicate ISO will be set automatically within the full range, or if you have set Auto ISO Range limitations...within the range you have selected. In the case of bounce flash, it defaults to ISO 400 for third-party flashes, defaults to an ISO range of 400-1600 when using canon-brand Speedlight external flash, and WILL automatically select any ISO from 100 on if the camera metering decides the scene will over-expose.

From all that, it appears "Auto ISO" is pretty much indeed COMPLETELY automatic within the FULL RANGE of possible native ISO settings. The only case that seems limited outside of the context of exposure issues is Auto ISO + Flash when using a third party (i.e. non-Speedlite) brand.



Pg. 128

Setting the Minimum Shutter Speed for Auto ISO

When Auto ISO is set, you can set the minimum shutter speed (1/250th sec. to 1 sec.) so that the automatically set shutter speed is not too slow. This is convenient in both <P> and <Av> modes when you use a wide-angle lens to shoot a moving subject. You can minimize both camera shake and subject blur.



As I understand page 128, Canon is ALLOWING YOU to SET the minimum shutter speed to SOME SETTING between 1 second and 1/250th of a second. The goal would be to prevent a shutter speed that is TOO SLOW when using P or Av modes, where both the shutter speed and ISO setting would be automatically selected. I see no reason whatsoever to use a shutter speed slower than 1 second. A minimum shutter speed of 1/250th of a second seems entirely reasonable to me. I would rather have a slightly lower minimum shutter speed than be unable to get a shot because the camera can't set a higher ISO and can't set a shutter speed long enough to capture the shot.

According to page 224, there are some additional restrictions on Auto ISO Range, Min. Shutter Spd. and ISO Speed Settings WHEN SHOOTING VIDEO. This makes a lot of sense since you pick a specific shutter speed when you choose your video frame rate (i.e. 24/23.9fps). It also makes sense to limit auto ISO, as it cannot be varied smoothly...it can only be varied in 1/3rd stops. Having ISO constantly jitter around in 1/3rd stop jumps would be incredibly annoying for those watching your videos. It would be a hell of a lot better to set ISO manually as needed, and if necessary apply an exposure ramp during post processing to normalize exposure smoothly.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon is just stupid (still no usable auto iso in 5D III)
« Reply #68 on: March 15, 2012, 10:55:38 PM »

Who needs the facts when we have so many learned opinionators ??

I think you missed the part where all those facts he listed are the same exact facts that we also listed and it is those facts where the problems lie.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon is just stupid (still no usable auto iso in 5D III)
« Reply #69 on: March 15, 2012, 11:00:11 PM »
Who needs the facts when we have so many learned opinionators ??

HAH! Seriously. Its become a morbid Canon death fest around here with all the complainers coming out of the woodwork to bitch about everything from low ISO DR, noise of all kinds at all levels, the "limitations" of 22 megapixels, the supposedly "TERRIBLE" Auto ISO setting capabilities, etc. etc.

As far as I can tell, not a single one of the people complaining actually have a 5D III in their hands (which, if they did, I would be willing to bet good money they would be drooling and oogling rather than complaining), and the few who have actually held one and tried them out at one event or another have appeared to be thoroughly impressed DESPITE the apparently heinous deficiencies it has in comparison to the D800 and, well, just about every other freaking camera on earth.

Like...wow.

Who needs the facts when we have so many learned opinionators ??

HAH! Seriously. Its become a morbid Canon death fest around here with all the complainers coming out of the woodwork to bitch about everything from low ISO DR, noise of all kinds at all levels, the "limitations" of 22 megapixels, the supposedly "TERRIBLE" Auto ISO setting capabilities, etc. etc.

As far as I can tell, not a single one of the people complaining actually have a 5D III in their hands (which, if they did, I would be willing to bet good money they would be drooling and oogling rather than complaining), and the few who have actually held one and tried them out at one event or another have appeared to be thoroughly impressed DESPITE the apparently heinous deficiencies it has in comparison to the D800 and, well, just about every other freaking camera on earth.

Like...wow.

So you think it makes sense that they disable EC in Auto ISO M mode?
That it makes sense for them to randomly lock out min shutter speeds higher than 1/250th?
How are those good things?
WHy are you defending them if you like Canon?
What if the next firmware release decides to eliminate M and Av modes?
Will you be wow, that's great!  ???
It actually took effort, for sure with the shutter speed thing, to make it go wrong.
Why do you need to hold a 5D3 to understand that it will work as the manual says it will?

It's not the end of the world with AutoISO, but they put in nonsensical limitation for no reason.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon is just stupid (still no usable auto iso in 5D III)
« Reply #70 on: March 15, 2012, 11:01:50 PM »
You should give up photography if you use auto-iso.

the funny thing is the people who come out with the comments like that are the ones who usually turn out to have much less experience shooting


LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon is just stupid (still no usable auto iso in 5D III)
« Reply #71 on: March 15, 2012, 11:04:19 PM »
@jrista - I see you added the bit about the minimum shutter speed to your post, which was the OP's complaint, wanting a higher min shutter speed than 1/250 s. As you point out (and as Canon states), this feature was added to address a specific issue with Auto ISO, namely that in Av (and P) mode with Auto ISO, shutter speed has priority - the camera will drop the shutter to 1/focal length (1/1.6xFL for APS-C), and then start raising ISO.  The problem is that with wide angle lenses like my 35L, it ends up at a shutter speed too slow to stop involuntary subject motion. This feature solves that issue nicely.

It's not, nor is it intended to be, fully customizable. Funny how no one's started a thread on the corollary - specifying a minimum aperture in Tv mode with Auto ISO, where with a fast f/1.2 or f/1.4 lens, the aperture will open to max before ISO is raised, leading to a DoF that's too thin - setting a 'floor' of f/1.8 or f/2 would be quite useful.  The answer to that was given earlier in this contentious thread - if you want full-range selectable min and max for ISO, shutter speed, and aperture, get a 1-series body like the 1D X.

So you need a 1 series because one single byte of code difference?
That kind of crippling is utterly pathetic.

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Re: Canon is just stupid (still no usable auto iso in 5D III)
« Reply #72 on: March 15, 2012, 11:24:21 PM »

Who needs the facts when we have so many learned opinionators ??

I think you missed the part where all those facts he listed are the same exact facts that we also listed and it is those facts where the problems lie.

Maybe I am mis-reading it then, but it seems the only time this 'minimum shutter speed limit' kicks in is in P or Av mode. While I see Neuro's and jrista's point, to me this seems to be just another small way to distinguish the 1 and 5 series, which should not be unexpected given the price differential.
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Re: Canon is just stupid (still no usable auto iso in 5D III)
« Reply #72 on: March 15, 2012, 11:24:21 PM »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon is just stupid (still no usable auto iso in 5D III)
« Reply #73 on: March 16, 2012, 12:08:54 AM »

Who needs the facts when we have so many learned opinionators ??

I think you missed the part where all those facts he listed are the same exact facts that we also listed and it is those facts where the problems lie.

Maybe I am mis-reading it then, but it seems the only time this 'minimum shutter speed limit' kicks in is in P or Av mode. While I see Neuro's and jrista's point, to me this seems to be just another small way to distinguish the 1 and 5 series, which should not be unexpected given the price differential.

When the difference is two bytes of code, a single stored number difference, and when it's over such a semi-minor thing and when rebel-level models from other makers have had usable modes for years and when you are $500 more than competition, it's pretty sad form of marketing differentiation if that is what it is. I mean they have been dribbling out one itty bitty bit better AutoISO feature by one over more than decade. Why do you want to defend that? It actually costs more for them to make two versions of the code (although the change probably takes but a few seconds granted but still).

if the 1DX needs a usable AutoISO to make it sell, then the camera is doomed to begin with. If they feel that is what they need to make or break sales, then they have made a mega-mess of it and may as well not even release. I don't think that is the case. So their marketing droids are just being annoying for no reason.

other makers have had it across their lines for years
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 12:22:06 AM by LetTheRightLensIn »

jrista

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Re: Canon is just stupid (still no usable auto iso in 5D III)
« Reply #74 on: March 16, 2012, 12:39:45 AM »
The reason some us bitch and moan non-stop over 30000 posts is because you can't dare mention a single thing that is not perfect, no matter how innocently, without getting swarmed over and attacked by the likes of you and having to defend everything with 100x more posts than you ever intended making to begin and then getting fed up with it all and maybe sinking into less innocent sounding phrasing the next time you post.

And maybe some DO like Canon and that is why they'd like some things to catch Canon's attention so they don't end up having to deal with the Nikon UI or a few of the missing lenses in their lineup and the mess of having to deal with switching.

And how about we get that you think everything about anything Canon has ever made is 100% perfect and that everthing they will ever make is 100% perfect and that it is a mortal sin to mention anything otherwise or to suggest they fix anything in any way, that not one thing can be said to be less than perfect about a Canon, heck, if DxO reports the same less DR findings you'd probably try to launch a DDOS against their site.... if you didn't attack everyone and constantly get on them for everything then maybe there would just be a couple posts here and there pointing something out and that would be it....

Just two things.

One. If you want Canon to hear, your complaining to the wrong people. Call up Canon, Email Canon, find an official Canon forum, and make noise THERE. If you refuse to do that, your not really interested in being heard by Canon, your just interested in being heard, and being sensationalistic over minor issues is just a way to garner some attention. That doesn't really help anyone.

Two. I've never said I think everything Canon does is perfect. I have said on many occasions that I want more DR. I've also said that as far as my landscape photography goes, I could use more image resolution because I'm the type of guy who prints huge. Personally, I want 47mp FF, 16-bit with Sony-level now noise, 15.9 stops of DR, packed into a body with 61pt AF, 100k RGB metering sensor, 100% transmissive LCD viewfinder with a level visibile IN the viewfinder (not just the back LCD), 8fps and two CF card slots that support 1000x cards, built in gigabit ethernet, built in intervolometer with configurable bulb ramping, 5 custom dial modes and only Tv, Av, M and B as my other options. I WANT a hell of a lot. And I want it cheap. But you don't always get what you want. So right now, I want to enjoy what I CAN get, without dumping my entire, very expensive kit. The 5D III is a MASSIVE improvement over the 5D II. A hell of a lot more than anyone really expected...despite being a little less than we may have all wanted...with two full stops of improved native ISO and the best AF system the world has seen yet.

I could certainly complain...but then there is that whole 80/20 ratio rule thing. Its GOOD ENOUGH, and were all better off enjoying what it is (the 80%), rather than hating what its not (the 20%).

So, LTRLI...I really hope you gain something for all the effort you expend here on this forum complaining about what isn't. You certainly don't seem happy, when you probably could be if you simply decided to be satisfied with what is. There is always a next time, and as far as Canon goes, next time is probably not 4 years from now...it could very likely be right around the corner and just past summer. You could very likely get 90, maybe even 95% of what you so desperately want...if you just had a little patience. Of all the things that might spell the end of the world...Canon lacking a few bytes of AutoISO and shutter speed features probably isn't it.

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Re: Canon is just stupid (still no usable auto iso in 5D III)
« Reply #74 on: March 16, 2012, 12:39:45 AM »