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Author Topic: AutoISO messed up.... AGAIN? arrrrrrr it's just not that difficult  (Read 32924 times)

briansquibb

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Re: AutoISO messed up.... AGAIN? arrrrrrr it's just not that difficult
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2012, 02:40:38 AM »
To those wondering why you'd want EC in M mode with Auto ISO, here's an example: a grossly backlit object. The camera will just end up underexposing unless you switch to spot metering mode or use AE lock.

Correct - so if you are following a bird or a bike you have it in spot mode. I would expect this to be normal practise



But then again, for me, Auto ISO in M mode is already going to be limited for me b/c I would've used it most with off-camera flashes, and if they put limitations on the ISO there... *sigh*.


Using flash and auto iso is not the way to go. Set all the parameters in M mode and let the flash produce the right amount of light.

 AutoISO messed up.... AGAIN - NO!! it's just not that difficult once you understand it
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 02:42:22 AM by briansquibb »

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Re: AutoISO messed up.... AGAIN? arrrrrrr it's just not that difficult
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2012, 02:40:38 AM »

sarangiman

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Re: AutoISO messed up.... AGAIN? arrrrrrr it's just not that difficult
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2012, 03:10:35 AM »
Quote
sarangiman said: To those wondering why you'd want EC in M mode with Auto ISO, here's an example: a grossly backlit object. The camera will just end up underexposing unless you switch to spot metering mode or use AE lock.

briansquibb said: Correct - so if you are following a bird or a bike you have it in spot mode. I would expect this to be normal practise

Yes but under other shooting conditions, say a wedding, switching back & forth between spot & evaluative is much more of a pain than just using EC. That being said, in non-flash event shooting, I typically use Av anyway... so not a huge concern to me personally.

Quote
Using flash and auto iso is not the way to go. Set all the parameters in M mode and let the flash produce the right amount of light.

I'm sorry, it was late & I wasn't thinking. You're absolutely right-- I always use M w/ off-camera flash specifically b/c I want to control the ambient vs. flash ratio. Auto ISO takes that control away & so is absolutely useless in the scenario I brought up.

Thanks for pointing that out :)

briansquibb

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Re: AutoISO messed up.... AGAIN? arrrrrrr it's just not that difficult
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2012, 03:30:56 AM »

Yes but under other shooting conditions, say a wedding, switching back & forth between spot & evaluative is much more of a pain than just using EC. That being said, in non-flash event shooting, I typically use Av anyway... so not a huge concern to me personally.


It is worth practising changing the metering (by the WB button) whilst viewfinding. For not so fast action such as a wedding this is a simple and reasonably quick change to make inflight.

With the 1D4 I use M mode/auto iso about equal time to AV when not using flash (which is full manual). I use M/auto iso in order to keep the needed iso to the minimum by setting the slowest shutter speed and the maximum aperture  - this keeps the IQ/DR to the maximum

sarangiman

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Re: AutoISO messed up.... AGAIN? arrrrrrr it's just not that difficult
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2012, 04:26:01 AM »
Quote
I use M/auto iso in order to keep the needed iso to the minimum by setting the slowest shutter speed and the maximum aperture  - this keeps the IQ/DR to the maximum

That's also great technique -- unfortunately not possible on the 5D2 b/c what the camera thinks are acceptable shutter speeds may or may not be acceptable at all. So hopefully that's totally fixed on the 5D3 now...

briansquibb

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Re: AutoISO messed up.... AGAIN? arrrrrrr it's just not that difficult
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2012, 04:28:10 AM »
Quote
I use M/auto iso in order to keep the needed iso to the minimum by setting the slowest shutter speed and the maximum aperture  - this keeps the IQ/DR to the maximum

That's also great technique -- unfortunately not possible on the 5D2 b/c what the camera thinks are acceptable shutter speeds may or may not be acceptable at all. So hopefully that's totally fixed on the 5D3 now...

The 5D2 has an auto iso limit of 400iso which is poor and one of the key factors of me going down the 7D/1D4 route


t.linn

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Re: AutoISO messed up.... AGAIN? arrrrrrr it's just not that difficult
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2012, 04:55:43 PM »
You were claiming that AutoISO was messed up in the 5D3 - which it clearly isnt - and you call Canon stupid which they clearly are not.

The OP is correct.  The lack of exposure compensation control in M+auto-ISO is no less limiting than trying to shoot in Av or Tv without EC.  Perhaps the confusion lies in the term "manual + auto ISO".  The bottom line is that if aperture and shutter speed are fixed but ISO is floating, then this parameter is set based on what the camera thinks the correct exposure should be.  And just like in Av or Tv, the camera is often wrong.  But unlike Av and Tv, in M+auto-ISO there is no way to compensate for the error.

This should be pretty obvious to a camera engineer if he/she actually uses cameras and is not just making theoretical choices.  I hesitate to name call but the term "stupid" doesn't seem too far off the mark.  Situations like this are particularly hard to accept from Canon since they are highly profitable with huge cash reserves and thus have the resources to get things like this right.  It's not like their camera division isn't highly profitable.  Perhaps they are crippled by bureaucracy in a way that smaller competitors like Pentax are not.  Regardless, I am in complete agreement with the OP on this.

sarangiman

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Re: AutoISO messed up.... AGAIN? arrrrrrr it's just not that difficult
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2012, 05:07:49 PM »
Do you think that enough people directly complaining to Canon from even before the camera is in the hands of people will get them to provide a firmware fix?

Where does one even lodge such suggestions/complaints?

Also, in M mode, what dial would be used for EC?

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Re: AutoISO messed up.... AGAIN? arrrrrrr it's just not that difficult
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2012, 05:07:49 PM »

bloodstupid

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Re: AutoISO messed up.... AGAIN? arrrrrrr it's just not that difficult
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2012, 05:23:50 PM »
Do you think that enough people directly complaining to Canon from even before the camera is in the hands of people will get them to provide a firmware fix?

Where does one even lodge such suggestions/complaints?

Also, in M mode, what dial would be used for EC?

It cant hurt to try, i allready filled out an online-contact-form asking them politely to consider including faster speeds. They did add autofocus for F8 in the 1Dx after user complaints didnt they?

smirkypants

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Re: AutoISO messed up.... AGAIN? arrrrrrr it's just not that difficult
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2012, 06:21:28 PM »
I gotta say, while not worthy of shrieking, it is pretty dumb. Ideally, if I were shooting the sports I shoot, I would want to set a shutter speed floor of 1/1000 or so and let Auto ISO choose an appropriate ISO. This is really quite a strange thing for Canon to do.

briansquibb

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Re: AutoISO messed up.... AGAIN? arrrrrrr it's just not that difficult
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2012, 06:40:07 PM »
I gotta say, while not worthy of shrieking, it is pretty dumb. Ideally, if I were shooting the sports I shoot, I would want to set a shutter speed floor of 1/1000 or so and let Auto ISO choose an appropriate ISO. This is really quite a strange thing for Canon to do.

I believe that this is the whole point of using auto iso in M mode which the 5DIII can do.  I am doing karts tomorrow - I will set mode to M, av to f/4 and tv to 1/1000 with auto iso and it will choose the correct iso.

smirkypants

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Re: AutoISO messed up.... AGAIN? arrrrrrr it's just not that difficult
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2012, 06:58:28 PM »
I believe that this is the whole point of using auto iso in M mode which the 5DIII can do.  I am doing karts tomorrow - I will set mode to M, av to f/4 and tv to 1/1000 with auto iso and it will choose the correct iso.
Actually, what I ideally want is for the camera to favor changing shutter speed in AV mode to changing ISO. I would like to tell the camera, "hey camera, set your floor shutter speed at 1/1000 and let Av move the shutter up to 1/8000. Only change ISO if you have to in order to maintain a minimum 1/1000. I would rather my shutter speed float. If I set the minimum shutter to 1/2000, then ISO may go up to 3200 when the action moves to the shade. But I would rather have 1/2000 or even 1/4000 when I can get it because horses move fast. I don't want to hard set the shutter at 1/1000.

I think this makes sense, right? This system won't do that, right?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 07:30:35 PM by smirkypants »

Dylan777

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Re: AutoISO messed up.... AGAIN? arrrrrrr it's just not that difficult
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2012, 07:17:12 PM »
sorry guys, but What is  EC  means?........I found this info in 5D III manual
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 07:43:40 PM by Dylan777 »
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briansquibb

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Re: AutoISO messed up.... AGAIN? arrrrrrr it's just not that difficult
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2012, 07:58:26 PM »
I believe that this is the whole point of using auto iso in M mode which the 5DIII can do.  I am doing karts tomorrow - I will set mode to M, av to f/4 and tv to 1/1000 with auto iso and it will choose the correct iso.
Actually, what I ideally want is for the camera to favor changing shutter speed in AV mode to changing ISO. I would like to tell the camera, "hey camera, set your floor shutter speed at 1/1000 and let Av move the shutter up to 1/8000. Only change ISO if you have to in order to maintain a minimum 1/1000. I would rather my shutter speed float. If I set the minimum shutter to 1/2000, then ISO may go up to 3200 when the action moves to the shade. But I would rather have 1/2000 or even 1/4000 when I can get it because horses move fast. I don't want to hard set the shutter at 1/1000.

I think this makes sense, right? This system won't do that, right?

I dont do it that way - I am happy fixing the av and tv - effectively this approach sets the camera to set the minimum ISO. I would set the safety shift on to allow the camera to override M mode.

I believe it can be done in the series 1 by setting tv range and safety shift although I have never used this as you have to change a fn ( which I am liable not to change back )


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Re: AutoISO messed up.... AGAIN? arrrrrrr it's just not that difficult
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2012, 07:58:26 PM »

sarangiman

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Re: AutoISO messed up.... AGAIN? arrrrrrr it's just not that difficult
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2012, 08:18:20 PM »
Quote
But I would rather have 1/2000 or even 1/4000 when I can get it because horses move fast. I don't want to hard set the shutter at 1/1000.

What you speak of goes entirely against the principle of 'adjust everything else within limits, then select the minimum ISO that gives you an acceptable exposure (┬▒EC, or exposure compensation, for the bloke above).

What you're asking for is to give high shutter speed a priority, allowing ISO to go higher than the camera could get by just setting a longer shutter speed (and therefore lower ISO).

That just goes against the entire philosophy of Auto ISO. What you're asking for is essentially 'use highest ISO possible within my limits, float everything else'.

Seems like a pretty limited case scenario to me. Seems to me you could just do one of the following:
  • Shoot in Tv mode, where the camera will prefer wider apertures, then increasing ISO. You even have EC available.
  • Shoot in M mode, select the aperture/shutter speed you prefer, camera will select lowest ISO necessary.

What's wrong with either of those two options?

Also, I ask again, what would you guys propose be the method of changing EC in M mode using Auto ISO? I would, for example, say: hold M.fn function down & use wheel to adjust EC.

Also, this whole 'defaults to ISO 400' thing... think that's because that's about unity gain for the 5DIII (and 5DII)? So they decided if you're using flash, you're probably deprived of light, so going below 400 would be undesirable, & going above 400 doesn't help much anyway since some people hold that there's not much advantage to shooting above unity gain ISO anyway & you have a flash to help anyhow...

Is that sound reasoning? I myself am unsure...

briansquibb

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Re: AutoISO messed up.... AGAIN? arrrrrrr it's just not that difficult
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2012, 08:22:52 PM »
I think the issue of auto iso for flash is a non problem as the shooter needs to decide the amount of ambient needed, rather than the camera.

I was using iso 50 today to lose the ambient, worked a treat and got better IQ for it at the same time

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Re: AutoISO messed up.... AGAIN? arrrrrrr it's just not that difficult
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2012, 08:22:52 PM »