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Author Topic: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark  (Read 77908 times)

DZY

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #90 on: June 08, 2012, 02:02:50 PM »
I congratulate Nikon on producing a stellar camera in the D800. Now can someone please post sample images taken with both a D800 and a 5DIII, where the D800 made them a better photographer? I have a feeling that I'll be waiting for a long time.

The DxO tests are amusing, but I don't see what's so fun about fixating on such silly lab tests instead of using a camera for its intended purpose: creating art! I'd venture to say that most pro photographers - those creating beautiful images with their gear - have never even heard of this DxOMark nonsense. IMHO, trying to objectively quantify the value of a subjective medium (photography) is preposterous.

I think Megan Fox is one hot momma, and I can fantasize all day about inappropriate things I'd like to do with her, but I can't tell you why I think she's hot. She's just hot, and it's as simple as that. Maybe someone can develop a biometric facial scanning device that attempts to objectively quantify which women are hot, and which aren't. The tech geeks will have a field day with that one, and remain virgins at the same time ;D

The same goes for image quality. Again, I applaud Nikon for developing a camera that scores so well on a silly lab test, but I don't need a silly lab test to distinguish a great image from a junk image. I find it sad that instead of people posting sample images of the D800 and saying "wow, that looks great" they can't get over some lab tests.
if DXO wants to do a FAIR test on any sensor, they should use the SAME optics, SAME shutter, SAME aperture assembly, SAME wave length of light, and SAME all other things to rule out any other factors. From cnet review I see they use canon lens to test canon body, I'd like to think they use nikon lens to test nikon body, etc. That makes the result less legitimate.
The other way I see is the Full Sensor Apparent Image Quality (FSAIQ) is not the actual image quality, sharpness and contrast plays important roll here, which related to both sensor and lens. So again DXO does not tell the sensor itself, it does tell the appearance in a specific case (8MP).
Somewhere at clarkvision website says the optimal size of a pixel is 5um and the density of a FF is around 34MP as D800.
I just want to be a little less bias.

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #90 on: June 08, 2012, 02:02:50 PM »

sarangiman

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #91 on: June 08, 2012, 04:12:53 PM »
Quote
From cnet review I see they use canon lens to test canon body, I'd like to think they use nikon lens to test nikon body, etc. That makes the result less legitimate.

Not necessarily. You can take multiple exposures at different exposures, &, for example, select the RAW file for each body that is just short of clipping the brightest patch of a wedge (in other words, 1/3EV more exposure clips, say, the green channel). You then find the darkest patch with SNR = 1 (or whatever your criterion is), & as long as you know how many stops are between that dark patch & the bright patch, you can calculate a dynamic range. Any differences in lens transmission & such are compensated for by you selecting the appropriate exposure RAW file for each body.

You can even do this 'in the real world', & if you do, you'll see that a Nikon D7000, D800, or any other of their bodies with the stellar Sony EXMOR sensors will have much cleaner shadows than any Canon 5D series body (or likely any Canon body, period... I'm speaking of the 5D series b/c that's what I own & have tested). Assuming, of course, that your scene has enough dynamic range to begin with (easily demonstrable with sunrise/sunset shots shooting toward the sun).

Quote
I just want to be a little less bias.

If you're suggesting that DXO is biased, what evidence do you have of that?

Marsu42

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #92 on: June 08, 2012, 04:26:28 PM »
If you're suggesting that DXO is biased, what evidence do you have of that?

This is common knowledge! a) we all know the 5d3 has a great sensor, b) dxo failed to praise it and rated d800 higher, a+b) dxo is biased, really simple if you think about it :-o

cliffwang

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #93 on: June 08, 2012, 05:00:05 PM »
If you're suggesting that DXO is biased, what evidence do you have of that?

This is common knowledge! a) we all know the 5d3 has a great sensor, b) dxo failed to praise it and rated d800 higher, a+b) dxo is biased, really simple if you think about it :-o
I don't say that's biased.  However, people should too focus on the score.
Many benchmark software for CPUs and GPUs and they all have the different results for the performances.  Some like nVidia, some like AMD, and some lie Intel.  You need to understand how they give the score to understand the meaning of the score.
I am not go that far yet, so the DXO score is not important for me.  I guess some people do a lot of photo retouching might care about the DXO score.  my 2cents.
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peederj

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #94 on: June 08, 2012, 05:00:58 PM »
After working professionally now with my 5D3 I have come to believe the D800 probably is a better stills camera (though I haven't shot with it) because of that sensor. But the 5D3 is a better video camera (even though resolution crippled). Event video with the 5D3 is outstanding (ISO 5000 is awesome). The RAW stills on the 5D3 are excellent but can't be pushed as hard in post as I've seen done with the D800.

Still, it would cost me over $10K to transition to D800 now, and the video wouldn't be as good. And I imagine Canon will have to respond within a year or so with an EF camera that can compete for stills. For video, Canon is saying C300 or forget it at this time. Invest in lenses instead at this point (next on my wish list is the 17 TS-E of course).

cliffwang

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #95 on: June 08, 2012, 06:07:26 PM »
After working professionally now with my 5D3 I have come to believe the D800 probably is a better stills camera (though I haven't shot with it) because of that sensor.
That's what many people argue here.  Many people here are shooting for events which is usually in low light environment.  D800 cannot bring much benefits for them even though it has more details and better DR.
I am just take photos for my family and for fun, so low ISO and high ISO is about 60/40.  That's why D800 is very attractive for me.  Hopefully Canon will have an FF camera similar to D800.
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sarangiman

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #96 on: June 08, 2012, 06:19:38 PM »
I'm also currently shooting with the 5D Mark III; its AF performance w/ my f/1.2 & f/1.4 primes is, so far, what I'd always wanted/expected in a high end camera.

But that doesn't mean I don't envy those game-changing sensors in the Nikons, especially for landscapes & environmental portraiture.

Quote
Many people here are shooting for events which is usually in low light environment.  D800 cannot bring much benefits for them even though it has more details and better DR.

But the D800 doesn't really hurt either. When the D800 image is downsized to 5D Mark III sizes, it's ISO 6400 images are virtually identical to the 5D Mark III image in terms of noise. I haven't compared higher ISOs myself. Video at higher ISOs do suffer on the D800 though.

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #96 on: June 08, 2012, 06:19:38 PM »

Jotho

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #97 on: June 08, 2012, 07:33:08 PM »
i would have read all of this thread but i've been out all weekend shooting with my 5Dmk3 ;)
since i don't really follow the lab tests or particularly care about them for that matter, 95 is good is it?

Second to that. There will always be something better out there. I can't say if D800 is better because I. don't care. I've had my MkIII a couple of weeks now and it's just great. Being just an ethusiast I have learnt tons already. Yesterday even my wife commented that the pics looks greater than with my old 60D. I'll continue shoot this weekend and not worry too much about what Nikon does, I hope all D800 owners are just as happy I am though.

cliffwang

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #98 on: June 08, 2012, 07:42:40 PM »
Quote
Many people here are shooting for events which is usually in low light environment.  D800 cannot bring much benefits for them even though it has more details and better DR.

But the D800 doesn't really hurt either. When the D800 image is downsized to 5D Mark III sizes, it's ISO 6400 images are virtually identical to the 5D Mark III image in terms of noise. I haven't compared higher ISOs myself. Video at higher ISOs do suffer on the D800 though.
Agree.  However, that only works for people like me, not a PRO.  I don't think people shoot 500+ photos for an wedding could spend time to downsize those photos and showing to their customers.  That's too much effort.
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DZY

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #99 on: June 08, 2012, 08:15:10 PM »
Not necessarily. You can take multiple exposures at different exposures, &, for example, select the RAW file for each body that is just short of clipping the brightest patch of a wedge (in other words, 1/3EV more exposure clips, say, the green channel). You then find the darkest patch with SNR = 1 (or whatever your criterion is), & as long as you know how many stops are between that dark patch & the bright patch, you can calculate a dynamic range. Any differences in lens transmission & such are compensated for by you selecting the appropriate exposure RAW file for each body.

You can even do this 'in the real world', & if you do, you'll see that a Nikon D7000, D800, or any other of their bodies with the stellar Sony EXMOR sensors will have much cleaner shadows than any Canon 5D series body (or likely any Canon body, period... I'm speaking of the 5D series b/c that's what I own & have tested). Assuming, of course, that your scene has enough dynamic range to begin with (easily demonstrable with sunrise/sunset shots shooting toward the sun).

If you're suggesting that DXO is biased, what evidence do you have of that?

OK, if, you select the "darkest patch with SNR = 1", that is the base noise (or white noise if in video), then, "as long as you know how many stops are between that dark patch & the bright patch" which I think is your "just short of clipping the brightest patch of a wedge", that is your complete white, the final result is the maximum stop you can get, not a problem.
The problem is, since the complete white is all the same in every sensor with same bit length of AtoD converter, you are actually compare the base noise here. You have to assume all the sensors have same overall gain (sensor QE, opamp gain, A/D depth, etc) in order to say this noise is sensor related ONLY, however, since there are many electronic components needed before the GPU(Graphical Process Unit), the result becomes a system overall performance.
The second problem is your "RAW" data is the one AFTER the GPU,  which has been processed. It has been well known in the astrophotography that Nikon does NOT output real raw data, some degrees of NR is applied to their RAW. You need to use mode3 to get real RAW in early years, so that "RAW" is not reliable/trustable/usable/representable to the system/sensor.
The third problem, which you did not understand from my post, is the lens DOES affect the result. Think about putting a diffusion filter before an ideal lens, it will mess the very dark and very bright. Let's put another grey color filter, there is no maximum white to be represented by the sensor any more. In theory, the final result is the transfer function of the lens+sensor+converter+processing. I just don't see how you can say the DXO score IS the sensor only properties.
I think the best part of Nikon SYSTEM is the DR curve at low light, which in real life is how much you can pull out from shadow.
As I said, Nikon+Sony, picks a good MP size, have good low noise, processes the data in a optimal way. BUT, this does not mean Canon does not have any of these currently, and "far behind".
I just don't like Canon do not do it.

DZY

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #100 on: June 08, 2012, 08:21:55 PM »
Quote
Many people here are shooting for events which is usually in low light environment.  D800 cannot bring much benefits for them even though it has more details and better DR.

But the D800 doesn't really hurt either. When the D800 image is downsized to 5D Mark III sizes, it's ISO 6400 images are virtually identical to the 5D Mark III image in terms of noise. I haven't compared higher ISOs myself. Video at higher ISOs do suffer on the D800 though.

to downsize the picture? What a joke to these downsize from nikon, first, why not you downsize both 5D3 and D800 to 800x600, I bet they will be the same. To be extreme, we can downsize any photo to 1x1 size and all picture will be the same for the same scene and exposure. Second, are you buying a 36MP camera and use as a 22MP each every time?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 08:24:04 PM by DZY »

Dylan777

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #101 on: June 08, 2012, 08:37:14 PM »
Making it the Highest Rated Sensor they've tested. Impressive! Don't Let us down Canon.

Nikon D800 

Overall Score - 95 

Color Depth - 25.3 bits 

Dynamic Range - 14.4 

Low Light ISO - 2853

This is killing me, I think Canon's going to lose this round big. I'm not jumping ship though, I'll still get the 5D3 or 1D X... because I just can't stand how the Nikon Cameras feel in my hand, and I've got all my Canon Gear.

My 5D III scored 120pts in my lab  ;D

cliffwang

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #102 on: June 08, 2012, 08:48:20 PM »
Quote
Many people here are shooting for events which is usually in low light environment.  D800 cannot bring much benefits for them even though it has more details and better DR.

But the D800 doesn't really hurt either. When the D800 image is downsized to 5D Mark III sizes, it's ISO 6400 images are virtually identical to the 5D Mark III image in terms of noise. I haven't compared higher ISOs myself. Video at higher ISOs do suffer on the D800 though.

to downsize the picture? What a joke to these downsize from nikon, first, why not you downsize both 5D3 and D800 to 800x600, I bet they will be the same. To be extreme, we can downsize any photo to 1x1 size and all picture will be the same for the same scene and exposure. Second, are you buying a 36MP camera and use as a 22MP each every time?
I believe that's not what the poster want to say.  The poster want to say in low ISO, D800 has better IQ than 5D3.  In high ISO, you would also get same IQ after downsizing the photos.  You actually don't need to downsize the photos because when you print them on 11 inches paper or display on your monitor, they are already downsized automatically.
The argue part is high MP will slow down your camera performance and request more processor power on your computer.  However, it bring more details.  That's trade off.  I take only about 8K to 10K photos a year.  For me I would like Canon release a high MP camera like D800.
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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #102 on: June 08, 2012, 08:48:20 PM »

sarangiman

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #103 on: June 08, 2012, 08:58:11 PM »
Quote
the result becomes a system overall performance.

... which is exactly what we should care about.

Quote
It has been well known in the astrophotography that Nikon does NOT output real raw data, some degrees of NR is applied to their RAW.

This is a good point, something I didn't want to get into earlier b/c of the complexity of the issue. But since you brought it up... what one can do is actually fit the quantitated data from the RAW file (of the wedge shot) to the theoretical luminosity curve of the wedge. You can then find the point at which the fit deviates significantly from the model, & set that as your lower end. To standardize results, maybe set a 'maximum deviance' criterion. From this fit vs. model you can also detect 'shadow crushing'... that is, if data is significantly clipped on the lower end (as some suspect is the case for Nikon RAWs), the quantitated data will deviate from the model quicker (instead of continuing to be linear on a log scale, the quantitated data will level out). I've done these measurements for a D7000 vs. my 5D II & 5D III; both cameras show this 'toe' on the darker end, & even if you pick the lower acceptable end based on this toe, the D7000 is still ~2 stops better than any of the 5D series bodies.

Quote
Let's put another grey color filter, there is no maximum white to be represented by the sensor any more

  • First of all, that's an extreme case.
  • Secondly, of course there's still maximum white... you adjust the exposure. Like I said, you take exposures right around the exposure that blows the brightest patch. An ND filter, e.g., simply does not trip up this methodology whatsoever.

Quote
I just don't see how you can say the DXO score IS the sensor only properties.

I never claimed anything of the sort.

Quote
to downsize the picture? What a joke to these downsize from nikon, first, why not you downsize both 5D3 and D800 to 800x600, I bet they will be the same. To be extreme, we can downsize any photo to 1x1 size and all picture will be same for same the scene and exposure. Second, are you buying a 36MP camera and use as a 22MP each every time?

Since this has been covered extensively in other threads, I won't belabor the point... but, in a nutshell, the point is simply that the 36MP camera offers you the advantage of more resolution if you want it, while giving you just as clean images at the resolution of the 5D Mark III.

I will say though that it would've been nice for Nikon to include mRAW functionality for lower resolution RAW images right off the camera to ease the workflow of photographers. But that has its own issues, since mRAWs require demosaicing prior to downsizing (and so you don't benefit from the freedom of choice of demosaicing algorithm, or the evolution of such algorithms in the future). So perhaps it behooves RAW converters (ACR, Aperture, etc.) to offer this option in their software as we get higher & higher megapixel cameras... but that raises other issues -- e.g. do you save the original RAW file or not?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 09:03:54 PM by sarangiman »

EchoLocation

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #104 on: June 08, 2012, 10:18:37 PM »
i would have read all of this thread but i've been out all weekend shooting with my 5Dmk3 ;)
since i don't really follow the lab tests or particularly care about them for that matter, 95 is good is it?

Second to that. There will always be something better out there. I can't say if D800 is better because I. don't care. I've had my MkIII a couple of weeks now and it's just great. Being just an ethusiast I have learnt tons already. Yesterday even my wife commented that the pics looks greater than with my old 60D. I'll continue shoot this weekend and not worry too much about what Nikon does, I hope all D800 owners are just as happy I am though.
If you don't care, that's fine.  However, when i choose to spend over 3000 dollars on an item I usually want to know I'm getting the best that I possibly can for my money. From the tests, reviews, sample shots I've seen, the 5DIII is at best as good as the D800 and is often considered to get destroyed by the Nikon. Personally, I prefer the feel of the 5DIII more,  but I think the 800 takes better pictures. I would love to have either, but I own Canon now, and there is no way that I would pay 500 dollars MORE for the III than the 800. I might pay 2700 for the Canon if the Nikon was 3000. As of now, It seems like Canon simply got killed this round, I am waiting for the D600 and Canon's mirrorless response/Photokina before making my next purchase.
I was really hoping for a D600ish Canon for around 2000 to upgrade to from my 5DC.
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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #104 on: June 08, 2012, 10:18:37 PM »