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Author Topic: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark  (Read 64548 times)

bkorcel

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #105 on: June 08, 2012, 11:31:29 PM »
Well tough to say that the D800 kills the 5dm3.  Maybe it kills it for YOU! I am just happy enough to be able to use my canon gear instead of waiting for stock somewhere.

And for the record, I am a canon user simply because three associates have had Nikon failures during critical shoots and thus far I cannot say that about anyone I know that uses canon gear.  So if 500 bucks more for the m3 buys me reliability then it's worth it indeed!  :)

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #105 on: June 08, 2012, 11:31:29 PM »

unfocused

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #106 on: June 09, 2012, 12:09:00 AM »
All this macho fighting over the trees, without seeing the forest.

The significance here is the convergence of quality between APS-C and full frame. The objective differences get smaller and smaller with each new generation. It doesn't matter if Nikon or Canon has a slight edge this month, the long march is toward indistinguishable differences in quality between two different size sensors.

sarangiman

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #107 on: June 09, 2012, 12:54:37 AM »
Quote
It doesn't matter if Nikon or Canon has a slight edge this month

>2 stops more dynamic range is hardly a 'slight edge'. If you extrapolate the read noise performance of Sony's EXMOR sensor on the D800 to a lower resolution 16MP sensor, it could have 15.8 stops of dynamic range. I'm not saying that's a valid extrapolation, but it certainly might be possible if they can keep the read noise down to ~3 electrons while increasing the saturation point.

16 stops of dynamic range would be absolutely game-changing/revolutionary for certain types of photography.

If that doesn't matter to you, sure it's absolutely valid for you to not care. My main point was that it's unfair to call DXO biased. They're reporting on image quality, after all.

sanj

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #108 on: June 09, 2012, 12:57:06 AM »
That means the D800 at ISO 200 is generating images as good as the 5D2 at ISO 100.

Wow - huge!

I do not believe for a moment that this is a game-changing or deal-breaking difference for anyone - it's just fodder for whiners.

Besides, at the risk of rolling out a hoary old cliché, it takes a damn' sight more a stop of DR more or less at low ISO to make the difference between a "good" and a "bad" image. I'd go as far as to bet that for 99.999% of users out there, it will make no practical difference whatsoever.

Seriously, it boils down to this: if an extra stop at base ISO really is "everything" to a photographer, then maybe the 5D Mk III is not for them: but I guarantee that the rest of the planet will be able to churn out spectacularly fine images in their millions with the 5D Mk III.


This forum is getting depressingly like DPR in terms of the obsession for measurebation over end results...

Disagree that 1 stop improvement is not a big deal. It certainly is. I have the 5d3 and am very happy with it, but 1 stop improvement would have been super for me for all low light action photography I do with tele lenses in jungles.

sarangiman

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #109 on: June 09, 2012, 01:12:45 AM »
Quote
Disagree that 1 stop improvement is not a big deal. It certainly is. I have the 5d3 and am very happy with it, but 1 stop improvement would have been super for me for all low light action photography I do with tele lenses in jungles.

... and it's not just a 1 stop improvement. According to DXO's numbers, you can underexpose your image 3 stops at ISO 100 on the D800 & have it look like the properly exposed image at ISO 100 on the 5D3. If you wanted to use the same shutter speed/aperture on the 5D3 as the 3-stop underexposed exposure on the D800, you'd have to use ISO 800 on the 5D3, which of course then runs the risk of significantly blowing highlights that would be retained in the D800 exposure. Meanwhile, the shadows of the 5D3 ISO 800 image would not be any cleaner than the D800 ISO 100 image pushed 3 stops in post (and, in fact, might be worse). So the advantage goes to the D800.

And it's not just obsession over numbers. My real-world landscape comparisons (literally side-by-side using a dual camera mount on my tripod) show an incredible advantage to the Nikon D7000 over any of the 5D cameras. Haven't gotten my D800 yet (Advantage: Canon!) so can't comment on real-world comparisons in my own hands yet.

In my opinion, they should have allowed for an ISO-less option on the D800 w/ a 'floating' ISO that doesn't actually apply any amplification in the hardware but, instead, allows you to apply it in software during RAW development (much like white balance controls for RAW now).
« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 01:16:59 AM by sarangiman »

lonebear

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #110 on: June 09, 2012, 01:14:06 AM »
All this macho fighting over the trees, without seeing the forest.

The significance here is the convergence of quality between APS-C and full frame. The objective differences get smaller and smaller with each new generation. It doesn't matter if Nikon or Canon has a slight edge this month, the long march is toward indistinguishable differences in quality between two different size sensors.

+1.

And that will eventually affect the lens selection, probably the lens design of the entire focal range.


Ellen Schmidtee

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #111 on: June 09, 2012, 01:51:56 AM »
Dynamic Range - 14.4 

The D800 has 14 bits A/D converters, so how could it have more than 14 bits of dynamic range?

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #111 on: June 09, 2012, 01:51:56 AM »

sarangiman

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #112 on: June 09, 2012, 02:02:27 AM »
Quote
The D800 has 14 bits A/D converters, so how could it have more than 14 bits of dynamic range?

Well, let me put it this way: a JPEG file is 8-bit, but that doesn't mean that the maximum scene dynamic range it can encode is only 8 stops, yes?

Similarly, though you want to typically match the bit-depth of the ADC to the dynamic range of the sensor (to decrease quantization errors & retain maximum tonality), it's not necessary.

In this case, DXO got 14.4 b/c of their normalization process. Any time you downsample an image, you decrease noise. Decreased noise means a lower acceptable signal at which SNR=1; hence the dynamic range increase.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 03:01:16 PM by sarangiman »

loveboxer

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #113 on: June 09, 2012, 03:49:57 AM »
I have only read a few of the posts in this thread. This is what I have to share. My partner and I have a photo studio in L.A. and we have had working relations with both Nikon and Canon. I shot for almost 20 years exclusively on Nikon and my partner on a Canon for almost 10. We have been shooting for the last 3 years on a 5D2. When the D800 and 5D3 was announced a few months back, we scoured the net for every review and user feedback there is, almost nightly.

We literally spend a few hours every day talking about this subject because we know that the camera we choose will be what we live with for the next three years and perhaps longer because it is a pain to switch. The feedback from the net about a D800 including DXO had my partner switch his entire system to Nikon, to two D700's and Nikons top glass, to buy him time until he could get his hands on D800's.

I could not wait to switch, being a Nikon fan boy but i decided to be prudent and just wait until after I did a side by side test of both cameras, D800 to 5D3.

Finally, last week we found two places that had both cameras available for us to shoot with. My partner was so excited because he was well prepared with all his beautiful Nikon glass and I was so excited just because I was used to my Nikon ergonomics. I know it sounds funny but I just never settled into the way the Canon feels in my hand and I often have to ask him to remind me how to adjust settings because they are not yet intuitive to me with Canon. I can pick up a Nikon and dial it in with my eye's closed.

Well, if you are wondering why the hell I am telling the internet all this in a Canon forum??? Well, I thought you Canon folk would like to know this. My partner and I live and support our families from photography. We are good at what we do. We took a D800 and a 5D3, with their best equivalent glass and shot them side by side, with the same settings. We did this for three days at two separate locations that had different cameras, just to make sure, there was no problem with any of the cameras influencing the outcome or the ambiance of the space affecting the color balance.

Moral of the story..... My partner has already begun selling ALL his Nikon gear. I am not switching back to Nikon...

Let it be known that when virtually every comparative shot was put side by side, the Canon won in sharpness, color balance or just a feeling that would draw us to the Canon image.  The Canon shot was picked over the Nikon almost every time even though it was the smaller image and that size seems to usually impress / influence, as it would when we would compare a D700 file  to a 5D2.

Moral of the story, no internet review or forum told us what our tests revealed to us, not one... Or if they did, they got shuffled because our minds seem to selectively choose what we want to read / listen to.. :-)


All the best...

L.B.


Kernuak

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #114 on: June 09, 2012, 05:38:09 AM »
That means the D800 at ISO 200 is generating images as good as the 5D2 at ISO 100.

Wow - huge!

I do not believe for a moment that this is a game-changing or deal-breaking difference for anyone - it's just fodder for whiners.

Besides, at the risk of rolling out a hoary old cliché, it takes a damn' sight more a stop of DR more or less at low ISO to make the difference between a "good" and a "bad" image. I'd go as far as to bet that for 99.999% of users out there, it will make no practical difference whatsoever.

Seriously, it boils down to this: if an extra stop at base ISO really is "everything" to a photographer, then maybe the 5D Mk III is not for them: but I guarantee that the rest of the planet will be able to churn out spectacularly fine images in their millions with the 5D Mk III.


This forum is getting depressingly like DPR in terms of the obsession for measurebation over end results...

Disagree that 1 stop improvement is not a big deal. It certainly is. I have the 5d3 and am very happy with it, but 1 stop improvement would have been super for me for all low light action photography I do with tele lenses in jungles.

Dynamic range would have virtually no relevance in a jungle, as in low light situations, dynamic range is very low, certainly well within the range that any Canon Camera can capture (unless there is directional light lighting up part of the scene, such as in clearings). Low noise at high ISO is more relevant. At higher ISOs, if you believe all the numbers, the 5D MkIII actually has the greater DR anyway.
Canon 5D MkIII, 7D, 300mm L IS f/2.8 and a few other L's

sanj

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #115 on: June 09, 2012, 05:44:06 AM »
I meant 1 stop ISO helps me. Sorry was not clear, was not talking about DR. :)

SPL

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #116 on: June 09, 2012, 08:49:11 AM »
I have only read a few of the posts in this thread. This is what I have to share. My partner and I have a photo studio in L.A. and we have had working relations with both Nikon and Canon. I shot for almost 20 years exclusively on Nikon and my partner on a Canon for almost 10. We have been shooting for the last 3 years on a 5D2. When the D800 and 5D3 was announced a few months back, we scoured the net for every review and user feedback there is, almost nightly.

We literally spend a few hours every day talking about this subject because we know that the camera we choose will be what we live with for the next three years and perhaps longer because it is a pain to switch. The feedback from the net about a D800 including DXO had my partner switch his entire system to Nikon, to two D700's and Nikons top glass, to buy him time until he could get his hands on D800's.

I could not wait to switch, being a Nikon fan boy but i decided to be prudent and just wait until after I did a side by side test of both cameras, D800 to 5D3.

Finally, last week we found two places that had both cameras available for us to shoot with. My partner was so excited because he was well prepared with all his beautiful Nikon glass and I was so excited just because I was used to my Nikon ergonomics. I know it sounds funny but I just never settled into the way the Canon feels in my hand and I often have to ask him to remind me how to adjust settings because they are not yet intuitive to me with Canon. I can pick up a Nikon and dial it in with my eye's closed.

Well, if you are wondering why the hell I am telling the internet all this in a Canon forum??? Well, I thought you Canon folk would like to know this. My partner and I live and support our families from photography. We are good at what we do. We took a D800 and a 5D3, with their best equivalent glass and shot them side by side, with the same settings. We did this for three days at two separate locations that had different cameras, just to make sure, there was no problem with any of the cameras influencing the outcome or the ambiance of the space affecting the color balance.

Moral of the story..... My partner has already begun selling ALL his Nikon gear. I am not switching back to Nikon...

Let it be known that when virtually every comparative shot was put side by side, the Canon won in sharpness, color balance or just a feeling that would draw us to the Canon image.  The Canon shot was picked over the Nikon almost every time even though it was the smaller image and that size seems to usually impress / influence, as it would when we would compare a D700 file  to a 5D2.

Moral of the story, no internet review or forum told us what our tests revealed to us, not one... Or if they did, they got shuffled because our minds seem to selectively choose what we want to read / listen to.. :-)


All the best...

L.B.

Nice!...

Marsu42

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #117 on: June 09, 2012, 09:17:51 AM »
Let it be known that when virtually every comparative shot was put side by side, the Canon won in sharpness, color balance or just a feeling that would draw us to the Canon image.

YEAH! In your face, Nikon!

If the winner wouldn't have been the 5d3, someone anonymous with one (1) post giving a such a clear-cut message contrary by all known facts would be a damn Nikon troll! But now, I'm sure this post is very soothing to Canon folks' minds ... I hope the poster will deliver the good news all over the Internet.

But wait, after thinking again: Canon, stop spending the profit from my purchases for viral marketing, but start working on a really improved sensor already, will you !?

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #117 on: June 09, 2012, 09:17:51 AM »

HarryWintergreen

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #118 on: June 09, 2012, 09:44:40 AM »
this 'who's got the best camera and if it's not my brand I'm gonna fall into despair' attitude still doesn't appeal to me. Is there anybody out there who believes seriously his or her poor Canon gear will prevent him or her from showing what his or her creativity is up to? And will we have to assume a future started by the D800 where people say, 'oh quite nice with your 5D3 but if you had taken your images with a Nikon body this would have made the essential difference and therefore stay in the realm of inferiority'?

lonebear

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #119 on: June 09, 2012, 10:26:40 AM »
Canon has been making small improvements here and there over years, which leads to systemwise advantage in quality and useability. I think it pays off in that side by side test. But, hey, Canon, in terms of sensors, you are lagging behind. How about another three years, show us some improvement in that department...

Expecting Photokina this September to see what "big splash" Canon is going to make.

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #119 on: June 09, 2012, 10:26:40 AM »