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Author Topic: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark  (Read 47348 times)

Ellen Schmidtee

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #120 on: June 09, 2012, 01:51:56 AM »
Dynamic Range - 14.4 

The D800 has 14 bits A/D converters, so how could it have more than 14 bits of dynamic range?

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #120 on: June 09, 2012, 01:51:56 AM »

sarangiman

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #121 on: June 09, 2012, 02:02:27 AM »
Quote
The D800 has 14 bits A/D converters, so how could it have more than 14 bits of dynamic range?

Well, let me put it this way: a JPEG file is 8-bit, but that doesn't mean that the maximum scene dynamic range it can encode is only 8 stops, yes?

Similarly, though you want to typically match the bit-depth of the ADC to the dynamic range of the sensor (to decrease quantization errors & retain maximum tonality), it's not necessary.

In this case, DXO got 14.4 b/c of their normalization process. Any time you downsample an image, you decrease noise. Decreased noise means a lower acceptable signal at which SNR=1; hence the dynamic range increase.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 03:01:16 PM by sarangiman »

loveboxer

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #122 on: June 09, 2012, 03:49:57 AM »
I have only read a few of the posts in this thread. This is what I have to share. My partner and I have a photo studio in L.A. and we have had working relations with both Nikon and Canon. I shot for almost 20 years exclusively on Nikon and my partner on a Canon for almost 10. We have been shooting for the last 3 years on a 5D2. When the D800 and 5D3 was announced a few months back, we scoured the net for every review and user feedback there is, almost nightly.

We literally spend a few hours every day talking about this subject because we know that the camera we choose will be what we live with for the next three years and perhaps longer because it is a pain to switch. The feedback from the net about a D800 including DXO had my partner switch his entire system to Nikon, to two D700's and Nikons top glass, to buy him time until he could get his hands on D800's.

I could not wait to switch, being a Nikon fan boy but i decided to be prudent and just wait until after I did a side by side test of both cameras, D800 to 5D3.

Finally, last week we found two places that had both cameras available for us to shoot with. My partner was so excited because he was well prepared with all his beautiful Nikon glass and I was so excited just because I was used to my Nikon ergonomics. I know it sounds funny but I just never settled into the way the Canon feels in my hand and I often have to ask him to remind me how to adjust settings because they are not yet intuitive to me with Canon. I can pick up a Nikon and dial it in with my eye's closed.

Well, if you are wondering why the hell I am telling the internet all this in a Canon forum??? Well, I thought you Canon folk would like to know this. My partner and I live and support our families from photography. We are good at what we do. We took a D800 and a 5D3, with their best equivalent glass and shot them side by side, with the same settings. We did this for three days at two separate locations that had different cameras, just to make sure, there was no problem with any of the cameras influencing the outcome or the ambiance of the space affecting the color balance.

Moral of the story..... My partner has already begun selling ALL his Nikon gear. I am not switching back to Nikon...

Let it be known that when virtually every comparative shot was put side by side, the Canon won in sharpness, color balance or just a feeling that would draw us to the Canon image.  The Canon shot was picked over the Nikon almost every time even though it was the smaller image and that size seems to usually impress / influence, as it would when we would compare a D700 file  to a 5D2.

Moral of the story, no internet review or forum told us what our tests revealed to us, not one... Or if they did, they got shuffled because our minds seem to selectively choose what we want to read / listen to.. :-)


All the best...

L.B.


Kernuak

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #123 on: June 09, 2012, 05:38:09 AM »
That means the D800 at ISO 200 is generating images as good as the 5D2 at ISO 100.

Wow - huge!

I do not believe for a moment that this is a game-changing or deal-breaking difference for anyone - it's just fodder for whiners.

Besides, at the risk of rolling out a hoary old cliché, it takes a damn' sight more a stop of DR more or less at low ISO to make the difference between a "good" and a "bad" image. I'd go as far as to bet that for 99.999% of users out there, it will make no practical difference whatsoever.

Seriously, it boils down to this: if an extra stop at base ISO really is "everything" to a photographer, then maybe the 5D Mk III is not for them: but I guarantee that the rest of the planet will be able to churn out spectacularly fine images in their millions with the 5D Mk III.


This forum is getting depressingly like DPR in terms of the obsession for measurebation over end results...

Disagree that 1 stop improvement is not a big deal. It certainly is. I have the 5d3 and am very happy with it, but 1 stop improvement would have been super for me for all low light action photography I do with tele lenses in jungles.

Dynamic range would have virtually no relevance in a jungle, as in low light situations, dynamic range is very low, certainly well within the range that any Canon Camera can capture (unless there is directional light lighting up part of the scene, such as in clearings). Low noise at high ISO is more relevant. At higher ISOs, if you believe all the numbers, the 5D MkIII actually has the greater DR anyway.
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sanj

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #124 on: June 09, 2012, 05:44:06 AM »
I meant 1 stop ISO helps me. Sorry was not clear, was not talking about DR. :)

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #125 on: June 09, 2012, 08:49:11 AM »
I have only read a few of the posts in this thread. This is what I have to share. My partner and I have a photo studio in L.A. and we have had working relations with both Nikon and Canon. I shot for almost 20 years exclusively on Nikon and my partner on a Canon for almost 10. We have been shooting for the last 3 years on a 5D2. When the D800 and 5D3 was announced a few months back, we scoured the net for every review and user feedback there is, almost nightly.

We literally spend a few hours every day talking about this subject because we know that the camera we choose will be what we live with for the next three years and perhaps longer because it is a pain to switch. The feedback from the net about a D800 including DXO had my partner switch his entire system to Nikon, to two D700's and Nikons top glass, to buy him time until he could get his hands on D800's.

I could not wait to switch, being a Nikon fan boy but i decided to be prudent and just wait until after I did a side by side test of both cameras, D800 to 5D3.

Finally, last week we found two places that had both cameras available for us to shoot with. My partner was so excited because he was well prepared with all his beautiful Nikon glass and I was so excited just because I was used to my Nikon ergonomics. I know it sounds funny but I just never settled into the way the Canon feels in my hand and I often have to ask him to remind me how to adjust settings because they are not yet intuitive to me with Canon. I can pick up a Nikon and dial it in with my eye's closed.

Well, if you are wondering why the hell I am telling the internet all this in a Canon forum??? Well, I thought you Canon folk would like to know this. My partner and I live and support our families from photography. We are good at what we do. We took a D800 and a 5D3, with their best equivalent glass and shot them side by side, with the same settings. We did this for three days at two separate locations that had different cameras, just to make sure, there was no problem with any of the cameras influencing the outcome or the ambiance of the space affecting the color balance.

Moral of the story..... My partner has already begun selling ALL his Nikon gear. I am not switching back to Nikon...

Let it be known that when virtually every comparative shot was put side by side, the Canon won in sharpness, color balance or just a feeling that would draw us to the Canon image.  The Canon shot was picked over the Nikon almost every time even though it was the smaller image and that size seems to usually impress / influence, as it would when we would compare a D700 file  to a 5D2.

Moral of the story, no internet review or forum told us what our tests revealed to us, not one... Or if they did, they got shuffled because our minds seem to selectively choose what we want to read / listen to.. :-)


All the best...

L.B.

Nice!...

Marsu42

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #126 on: June 09, 2012, 09:17:51 AM »
Let it be known that when virtually every comparative shot was put side by side, the Canon won in sharpness, color balance or just a feeling that would draw us to the Canon image.

YEAH! In your face, Nikon!

If the winner wouldn't have been the 5d3, someone anonymous with one (1) post giving a such a clear-cut message contrary by all known facts would be a damn Nikon troll! But now, I'm sure this post is very soothing to Canon folks' minds ... I hope the poster will deliver the good news all over the Internet.

But wait, after thinking again: Canon, stop spending the profit from my purchases for viral marketing, but start working on a really improved sensor already, will you !?

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #126 on: June 09, 2012, 09:17:51 AM »

HarryWintergreen

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #127 on: June 09, 2012, 09:44:40 AM »
this 'who's got the best camera and if it's not my brand I'm gonna fall into despair' attitude still doesn't appeal to me. Is there anybody out there who believes seriously his or her poor Canon gear will prevent him or her from showing what his or her creativity is up to? And will we have to assume a future started by the D800 where people say, 'oh quite nice with your 5D3 but if you had taken your images with a Nikon body this would have made the essential difference and therefore stay in the realm of inferiority'?

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #128 on: June 09, 2012, 10:26:40 AM »
Canon has been making small improvements here and there over years, which leads to systemwise advantage in quality and useability. I think it pays off in that side by side test. But, hey, Canon, in terms of sensors, you are lagging behind. How about another three years, show us some improvement in that department...

Expecting Photokina this September to see what "big splash" Canon is going to make.

Ellen Schmidtee

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #129 on: June 09, 2012, 12:46:04 PM »
Quote
The D800 has 14 bits A/D converters, so how could it have more than 14 bits of dynamic range?

A JPEG file is 8-bit, but that doesn't mean that the maximum scene dynamic range it can encode is only 8 stops, correct?

I'm not so sure.

briansquibb

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #130 on: June 09, 2012, 01:37:50 PM »
Neuro has effectively destroyed the credibility of the DxO sensor marks.

So there is no evidence that there is a difference between the Nikon and Canon sensors. Lets move on and look at the pictures.

peederj

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #131 on: June 09, 2012, 01:47:19 PM »
Yes the intangibles and subjectives win all at the end of the day, and will vary from individual to individual.

We can argue though about the tangibles and objectives, so we do.

What shouldn't happen is a sacrifice of better subjective intangibles for better objective tangibles.

I am fairly pleased with the 5D3 photos but I can't push shadows in post like I would be able to on the D800. That really is a game changing capability I envy. I don't know which I would prefer subjectively, I would have to do your kind of side by side test.

I think Canon may have the subjective edge in glass; the only lens I envy from the Nikon side is the 14-24. And glass is what lasts and retains value. There is so much EF glass out there the mount's future is secure. Canon will have a sensor I can push soon enough.

I have only read a few of the posts in this thread. This is what I have to share. My partner and I have a photo studio in L.A. and we have had working relations with both Nikon and Canon. I shot for almost 20 years exclusively on Nikon and my partner on a Canon for almost 10. We have been shooting for the last 3 years on a 5D2. When the D800 and 5D3 was announced a few months back, we scoured the net for every review and user feedback there is, almost nightly.

We literally spend a few hours every day talking about this subject because we know that the camera we choose will be what we live with for the next three years and perhaps longer because it is a pain to switch. The feedback from the net about a D800 including DXO had my partner switch his entire system to Nikon, to two D700's and Nikons top glass, to buy him time until he could get his hands on D800's.

I could not wait to switch, being a Nikon fan boy but i decided to be prudent and just wait until after I did a side by side test of both cameras, D800 to 5D3.

Finally, last week we found two places that had both cameras available for us to shoot with. My partner was so excited because he was well prepared with all his beautiful Nikon glass and I was so excited just because I was used to my Nikon ergonomics. I know it sounds funny but I just never settled into the way the Canon feels in my hand and I often have to ask him to remind me how to adjust settings because they are not yet intuitive to me with Canon. I can pick up a Nikon and dial it in with my eye's closed.

Well, if you are wondering why the hell I am telling the internet all this in a Canon forum??? Well, I thought you Canon folk would like to know this. My partner and I live and support our families from photography. We are good at what we do. We took a D800 and a 5D3, with their best equivalent glass and shot them side by side, with the same settings. We did this for three days at two separate locations that had different cameras, just to make sure, there was no problem with any of the cameras influencing the outcome or the ambiance of the space affecting the color balance.

Moral of the story..... My partner has already begun selling ALL his Nikon gear. I am not switching back to Nikon...

Let it be known that when virtually every comparative shot was put side by side, the Canon won in sharpness, color balance or just a feeling that would draw us to the Canon image.  The Canon shot was picked over the Nikon almost every time even though it was the smaller image and that size seems to usually impress / influence, as it would when we would compare a D700 file  to a 5D2.

Moral of the story, no internet review or forum told us what our tests revealed to us, not one... Or if they did, they got shuffled because our minds seem to selectively choose what we want to read / listen to.. :-)


All the best...

L.B.

sarangiman

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #132 on: June 09, 2012, 02:02:18 PM »
Quote
A JPEG file is 8-bit, but that doesn't mean that the maximum scene dynamic range it can encode is only 8 stops, correct?

Hint: yes, the JPEG can show an image with scene DR greater than 8 stops :)

Quote
Is there anybody out there who believes seriously his or her poor Canon gear will prevent him or her from showing what his or her creativity is up to?

Shortcomings of systems are real problems for certain photographers/types of photography. There's no use in denying that (if we kept denying it, where would that leave progress?). Usually we try to work around it, but that doesn't mean that new technology isn't welcome. For example, shooting off-center compositions with f/1.4 or f/1.2 primes & a Canon 5D Mark II and praying that you get better than a 30% hit rate on focus for shallow DOF photography... boy was the new AF system on the 5D Mark III a breath of relief.

Quote
Interesting post.  Thanks for sharing.  I was under the impression the Nikon would render a sharper scene, but one that required color correction in post.

It will. That was just the opinion of one poster. Maybe he was shooting JPEG & had the sharpness setting turned up higher than on the Nikon. Certainly not unheard of... this reviewer in the link below made such a mistake & concluded that the Canon image was sharper, but then also provided the full-size JPEGs for comparison which, if you compare closely, show significant more detail in the Nikon image:

http://www.ronmartblog.com/2012/05/comparision-nikon-d800-vs-canon-5d-mark.html

It can be demonstrably shown that the Nikon D800 will always render more detail than the Canon 5D Mark III b/c of its higher pixel density, barring lens limitations.

Quote
Low noise at high ISO is more relevant. At higher ISOs, if you believe all the numbers, the 5D MkIII actually has the greater DR anyway.

OK, at ISO 12,800 & above, sure. Which is why I mentioned that the D800 should've offered an 'ISO-less' operation mode. Or, for now, you could just use a different philosophy when shooting w/ the D800: Instead of ISO 12,800, use ISO 3200 & underexpose your image by 2 stops (i.e. use the same shutter speed/aperture as you would on your 5D Mark III at ISO 12,800, but just lower your ISO setting to 3200, or dial in -2 EC). Now your D800 image will have more DR & likely be cleaner than the 5D Mark III image at ISO 12,800.

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #132 on: June 09, 2012, 02:02:18 PM »

sarangiman

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #133 on: June 09, 2012, 02:08:03 PM »
Quote
Neuro has effectively destroyed the credibility of the DxO sensor marks.

Do you mind pointing us to where he did this? And, in the face of all the evidence of the ability to push D800 shadows stops & stops above 5D Mark III shadows, are you really disinclined to believe DxO's numbers that quantify exactly what is being observed & reported all over the internets?

I understand it's less of an issue for you Brian, with your enviable lack-of-banding shadows from your 1DsIII :) That really was a clean dark frame you sent me!

Quote
the only lens I envy from the Nikon side is the 14-24

Oh absolutely. Which is why I gave up with Canon ultra-wide zooms & got myself the 14-24 & a Novoflex adapter (costly, but wonderful). I couldn't be happier with edge-to-edge sharpness by f/5.6. Even f/2.8 on the 14-24 has sharper edges than f/11 on any 16-35 or 17-40 I've used.

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #134 on: June 09, 2012, 03:00:10 PM »
Quote
The D800 has 14 bits A/D converters, so how could it have more than 14 bits of dynamic range?

A JPEG file is 8-bit, but that doesn't mean that the maximum scene dynamic range it can encode is only 8 stops, correct?

I'm not so sure.


Think about printing greyscale images with only pure black ink. So you basically have only two colors pure white and pure black, one stop DR only? And it is possible to print a fine greyscale image if the resolution is fine enough. The technique is some kind old.

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #134 on: June 09, 2012, 03:00:10 PM »