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Author Topic: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark  (Read 48847 times)

elflord

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #60 on: March 24, 2012, 12:55:30 PM »
They apply arbitrary - and by their own admission, completely subjective - scores to a series of metrics to end up with one number.

The issue is that if you don't give the same priority to the metrics that they do, the scores can be moved substantially.

The simple fact is that DxOMark's conclusions are no more objective than simply looking at the images and picking the one you like best.

That's true of the aggregate use case scores. But we are discussing the graphs which do indicate unambiguously that the D800 sensor has better dynamic range at low ISO.  Whether or not dynamic range at low ISO is important is subjective and depends on how you're using the camera. How to weight the three different use case scores to get the final number is also very subjective (to some users only one of those three measures might matter). Also, they made some somewhat arbitrary choices about the way they combined the different factors to get the high ISO score.

To get a more accurate picture, you really need to look at the measurements to see where the differences really lie, and this is what was done in this thread. 

We won't know exactly how good the 5DIII is until we see the scores for that, but it's pretty clear that the D800 has a better performing sensor than the 5D2 (but hardly surprising -- previous Nikon models were already performing better. Even the Sony APS-C cameras were doing better for low ISO dynamic range)

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #60 on: March 24, 2012, 12:55:30 PM »

briansquibb

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #61 on: March 24, 2012, 12:58:03 PM »
re. MF cameras ... give me a break!

Yep I guess you are in denial that there is anything better than a D800

Astro

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #62 on: March 24, 2012, 01:07:02 PM »
this is coming from MF users.....

Quote
A 36 Megapixel camera, with or without an AA filter is terra incognita for many photographers. Till now, unless one has been able to outlay $25,000 to $50,000 for an MF back, camera and lenses, this type of resolving power has not be accessible. Now, for about $3,000, is the D800 series able to match medium format other than in resolving power? We'll have to wait until photographers with MF systems have a chance to do some comparisons, but I wouldn't take bets either way at this point.
 
Keep in mind that a 36 Megapixel camera isn't for everyone. If you just shot for the web and electronic media; if you rarely make prints larger than Super-A3 (13X19"), if you don't own high-end glass and know how to get the most from it, then neither the D800 nor the D800e are going to make a visible difference to your photography – at least not in terms of their higher resolving power. But if you do make large prints, do have some top Nikon and third party lenses, and do understand and practice optimum shooting technique, then it's my guess that there is nothing for the price that will do as much for your output as one of these two new cameras.
 
I can tell you that I have placed my order for a Nikon D800e from my local dealer, and hope to take delivery in mid-April. This coincides with my return to Toronto from Mexico, and I expect to spend a good part of the summer shooting various projects (stills and video) with the new Nikon. You can therefore expect several reports on the D800e to appear here in the weeks and months ahead. Friends and colleagues with various MF gear, including the Leica S2, Pentax 645D and Phase, Leaf and Hasselblad backs have already volunteered to help with comparison shoots, and likely the web will be full of such from other sources as well before long.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/nikon_d800_or_d800e.shtml


i stay with canon.. but fair is fair....

and i think there is no question that it will be more versatile then a MF camera.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2012, 01:10:44 PM by Astro »

briansquibb

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #63 on: March 24, 2012, 01:21:28 PM »
this is coming from MF users.....

Quote
A 36 Megapixel camera, with or without an AA filter is terra incognita for many photographers. Till now, unless one has been able to outlay $25,000 to $50,000 for an MF back, camera and lenses, this type of resolving power has not be accessible. Now, for about $3,000, is the D800 series able to match medium format other than in resolving power? We'll have to wait until photographers with MF systems have a chance to do some comparisons, but I wouldn't take bets either way at this point.
 
Keep in mind that a 36 Megapixel camera isn't for everyone. If you just shot for the web and electronic media; if you rarely make prints larger than Super-A3 (13X19"), if you don't own high-end glass and know how to get the most from it, then neither the D800 nor the D800e are going to make a visible difference to your photography – at least not in terms of their higher resolving power. But if you do make large prints, do have some top Nikon and third party lenses, and do understand and practice optimum shooting technique, then it's my guess that there is nothing for the price that will do as much for your output as one of these two new cameras.
 
I can tell you that I have placed my order for a Nikon D800e from my local dealer, and hope to take delivery in mid-April. This coincides with my return to Toronto from Mexico, and I expect to spend a good part of the summer shooting various projects (stills and video) with the new Nikon. You can therefore expect several reports on the D800e to appear here in the weeks and months ahead. Friends and colleagues with various MF gear, including the Leica S2, Pentax 645D and Phase, Leaf and Hasselblad backs have already volunteered to help with comparison shoots, and likely the web will be full of such from other sources as well before long.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/nikon_d800_or_d800e.shtml


i stay with canon.. but fair is fair....

and i think there is no question that it will be more versatile then a MF camera.

For me personally I dont output at larger than Super A3 (A3+) so the D800 has no benefits.

The MF is really a niche camera - I was saying that it would be better for landscapes than the D800. I have seen a wall sized landscape print from a 80mb Mamiya/Leaf and the IQ was stunning - the D800 cant compete with this type of camera.

If we are talking of all rounder between the D800 and the 5D3 well I dont think it is as clear cut as some are saying

Spriter

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Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #64 on: March 24, 2012, 01:37:49 PM »
I am mesmerized by this.  What does that means.

Nikon is able to do a great sensor on FF 36mp but in comparison failed to benefit from all the light available to their smaller sensor on the D4?  To me, this is rather choking.  Can't be.

When looking to DXOMark sensor evaluation I can't help but think that there is something wrong about all this.  They apparently are doing this on production unit and the D800 does not ship yet.  Is this because Canon is now shipping and has a lot of success with their sales? 

I can't trust them.  That's all.

Astro

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #65 on: March 24, 2012, 01:41:14 PM »
I am mesmerized by this.  What does that means.

Nikon is able to do a great sensor on FF 36mp but in comparison failed to benefit from all the light available to their smaller sensor on the D4?  To me, this is rather choking.  Can't be.

question is.. nikon or sony?

but you are right i wondered about the D4 too.

Marsu42

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #66 on: March 24, 2012, 01:52:23 PM »
Personally, I don't see much groundbreaking about it besides the 36MP.

Imho the groundbreaking fact about the D800 is that they have 36mp and *still* get better noise and dr results which contradicts everything ever said about the disadvantages of high mp sensors. If they'd put in a 22mp sensor too, the big leap forward would be much more obvious because dr/noise would make the Canon sensors look like a past generation.

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #66 on: March 24, 2012, 01:52:23 PM »

Astro

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #67 on: March 24, 2012, 01:54:51 PM »
Imho the groundbreaking fact about the D800 is that they have 36mp and *still* get better noise and dr results which contradicts everything ever said about the disadvantages of high mp sensors. If they'd put in a 22mp sensor too, the big leap forward would be much more obvious because dr/noise would make the Canon sensors look like a past generation.

well no.. not if you believe those who say pixelsize has no influence on signal/noise ratio or DR.
which the D800 sensor seems to prove... in some way.

they had to make an actual D800 sensor with bigger pixel to see what is correct.


« Last Edit: March 24, 2012, 01:59:28 PM by Astro »

Canon-F1

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #68 on: March 24, 2012, 02:19:56 PM »
which contradicts everything ever said about the disadvantages of high mp sensors. If they'd put in a 22mp sensor too, the big leap forward would be much more obvious because dr/noise would make the Canon sensors look like a past generation.

logic dictates it is either one or the other... but not both.   

if pixelsize has no influence then a 22mp sensor will not be better.

dilbert

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #69 on: March 24, 2012, 02:24:06 PM »
Personally, I don't see much groundbreaking about it besides the 36MP.

Imho the groundbreaking fact about the D800 is that they have 36mp and *still* get better noise and dr results which contradicts everything ever said about the disadvantages of high mp sensors. If they'd put in a 22mp sensor too, the big leap forward would be much more obvious because dr/noise would make the Canon sensors look like a past generation.

If Nikon/Sony were to make a 22MP sensor that used the same technology as the 36MP sensor in the D800 and that 22MP sensor were made to be a full-frame 35mm sensor, then I expect that you would have a sensor that blows the socks off of the one in the D800.

Canon-F1

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #70 on: March 24, 2012, 02:34:37 PM »
sony/nikon seem to backup those who say SNR is independent from pixelsize.

canon on the other side says 22mp are the optimum for SNR and MP with current technology.

V8Beast

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #71 on: March 24, 2012, 02:43:28 PM »
I congratulate Nikon on producing a stellar camera in the D800. Now can someone please post sample images taken with both a D800 and a 5DIII, where the D800 made them a better photographer? I have a feeling that I'll be waiting for a long time.
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Even when you do pixel peep, people reach different conclusions based on their biases. If this is someone's idea of enjoying photography, I find it quite pathetic.
Quote
To my eyes, however, the real-world benefits of its awesomeness are tough to spot in most of the images taken with it so far.
And yet you'd already decided that the D800 was the way to go, purely on the basis of spec sheets.

Thanks for digging that up for me, although you could have figured out that I ordered up a D800 (and a 5DIII for that matter) right here on Canon Rumors. I'm sorry you find how I choose to spend my own money so offensive.

It is interesting to read back to see how much my opinion has changed in the last couple of months. When I posted that, the rumor mill was swirling with a 5DIII with only a slightly improved AF and a 3-4 FPS burst rate. It didn't look like Canon would address my two biggest gripes with the 5DII, but they delivered big time. I never dreamed that Canon would put its flagship 61-point AF system and a 6 FPS burst rate in the 5DIII, but they did.

For me, the D800 is a camera whose specs are very impressive, but my enthusiasm has fizzled now that sample images from the wild are coming in. The 5DIII, on the other hand, is a camera whose rumored specs seemed very underwhelming at a time, but that changed once Canon seriously upped the AF and FPS ante, and it has impressed me more by the day as real world sample images start rolling in. 

Hopefully that's OK with Mr. KeithR, but if not, I don't care. How someone chooses to spend their own money is none of my business.

japhoto

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #72 on: March 24, 2012, 02:57:04 PM »
I'm still standing by a few points that I've said earlier in other threads:

1.) The D800 seems to be a great "all-rounder" camera, but I must admit that 5DIII with the improved AF-system comes much closer to being one too.

2.) I still think that D800 owners will have to adapt a medium format "workflow" to get the best results from it. Hand-holding is going to be tricky one here, at least to get sharp images at 1:1.


No argument.  As I have gone to smaller pixels, I've had to be more careful about my technique to get good images.  I won't be surprised to see a lot complaints about it from users who haven't dealt with it before.

Hand holding won't a problem. It's 36mp but it still has bigger pixels than the 7D.

I know it has (slightly) bigger pixels than the 7D, but since I'm shooting with the 7D now I can say that it requires those same techniques to get the most out of it. And yes, hand-holding to get sharp images at 1:1 is a PITA when the light isn't exceptionally good.

And adding a third point to my original list:

3.) Since the pixel pitch is similar to the 7D, it also means that the DLA is at around f/8 which is something people don't seem to think about with this camera.

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #72 on: March 24, 2012, 02:57:04 PM »

Canon-F1

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #73 on: March 24, 2012, 03:04:29 PM »
3.) Since the pixel pitch is similar to the 7D, it also means that the DLA is at around f/8 which is something people don't seem to think about with this camera.


what means you will have all the benefits below f8 and no real negative effects above f8.
it´s not as if the 36mp sensor will fall under the resolution of, lets say, a 21mp sensor at a given aperture.

it´s just that the sweetspot is at a more open aperture.
 


 
« Last Edit: March 24, 2012, 03:23:06 PM by Canon-F1 »

dtaylor

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #74 on: March 24, 2012, 03:15:09 PM »
That's true of the aggregate use case scores. But we are discussing the graphs which do indicate unambiguously that the D800 sensor has better dynamic range at low ISO.

I have personally checked DxO's dynamic range results for 3 bodies (10D, 20D, 7D) against a Stouffer transmission step wedge in essentially the same test that is performed at DPReview.com.

I was able to confirm DPReview's results. DxO wasn't even close to reality.

DxO does not know how to properly measure dynamic range. If you want accurate DR values, please view test results at DPReview.

Quote
We won't know exactly how good the 5DIII is until we see the scores for that, but it's pretty clear that the D800 has a better performing sensor than the 5D2

Nothing of the sort is clear for dynamic range. Resolution, yes. You can discern that just from the MP counts, and initial studio test images from DPR and IR confirm it. But we won't know how they compare in terms of noise or DR until a reputable testing site publishes their review.

Quote
(but hardly surprising -- previous Nikon models were already performing better. Even the Sony APS-C cameras were doing better for low ISO dynamic range)

What Sony APS-C camera would that be? It looks to me like they are no better than Canon's 18 MP bodies when DR optimization is on or when RAW is used under best possible settings. That would leave Sony's APS-C sensors a solid 1 stop behind the Canon 5D2. I doubt the 5D3 has less DR.

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Re: Mother of God - D800 scores 95 DxOMark
« Reply #74 on: March 24, 2012, 03:15:09 PM »