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Author Topic: Any thoughts on how the 5d3 will compare on dxo mark to the Nikon D800?  (Read 25690 times)

peederj

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Re: Any thoughts on how the 5d3 will compare on dxo mark to the Nikon D800?
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2012, 01:50:22 AM »
I think the iPhone 4S is the best camera for family photography. Because everything else is going to either not be with you when your best moments happen, or distract you so much those moments can't get off the ground.

And I fear the day that objective considerations triumph completely over subjective ones.

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Re: Any thoughts on how the 5d3 will compare on dxo mark to the Nikon D800?
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2012, 01:50:22 AM »

KKCFamilyman

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Re: Any thoughts on how the 5d3 will compare on dxo mark to the Nikon D800?
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2012, 08:28:08 PM »
I have the 4s and my wife has the ps 310hs but they just don't compare. Really not even close.
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LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Any thoughts on how the 5d3 will compare on dxo mark to the Nikon D800?
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2012, 09:00:09 PM »
Now that I understand what you are trying to do, I think it's pretty safe to say that the 5DmkIII will be your better option. BTW, I just received mine and played with it for a bit. I must say, regardless of specs in reviews and comparisons to the 5DmkII; I instantly realized first hand that the 5DmkIII is a beast of a camera!  ;D  It's a completely different animal from the mkII (which I also have). So instead of calling the 5DmkIII a merge between a 5DmkII and 7D, it's more like it took the ergonomics of a 7D and merged the 5DmkII and 1DX!  ;D So from initial impressions, I am simply impressed! Canon FTW!

yeah, he seems to want fast, ultra-low light, close range indoor action, I think 5D3 gets the win for him

Aglet

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Re: Any thoughts on how the 5d3 will compare on dxo mark to the Nikon D800?
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2012, 09:39:13 PM »

I want a deeper dof than my 60d..Any suggestions..

Too bad about the seriously low light action requirements cuz when I need more DoF than practical for an SLR I grab a good small-sensor compact like the G12.  Lots of DoF at low f # compared to SLR and the thing can output a workable raw file to iso 800+.

Arun

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Re: Any thoughts on how the 5d3 will compare on dxo mark to the Nikon D800?
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2012, 07:52:21 AM »
Quote from: poias link=topic=4747.msg95100#msg95100

Without a doubt, D800 with lab proven DR 14+, its ISO 2800+, and a 36mpx detail totally blows its competition away. Heck, it is a $10,000 camera for less than 1/3rd price! No, good photographers will not get worse by using it... on the contrary, bad photographers might gain advantage by its cropping ability and other unmatched features.

Please remember that dxomark scores apply to a  image scaled to 8 megapixels.
It is the 8 MP image that has DR 14+, ISO 2800+, etc., not the 36mpx.

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Re: Any thoughts on how the 5d3 will compare on dxo mark to the Nikon D800?
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2012, 08:11:44 AM »
Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

JR

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Re: Any thoughts on how the 5d3 will compare on dxo mark to the Nikon D800?
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2012, 08:31:17 AM »
Please remember that dxomark scores apply to a  image scaled to 8 megapixels.
It is the 8 MP image that has DR 14+, ISO 2800+, etc., not the 36mpx.

Really?  If true then what is the point of that?  No one will shoot and downsize to 8MP.  If you are correct I would really like to see DR at its full resolution because this is not a 8MP camera it is a 36MP camera!

All these test are starting to sound like rubbish to me anyway!
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Re: Any thoughts on how the 5d3 will compare on dxo mark to the Nikon D800?
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2012, 08:31:17 AM »

straub

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Re: Any thoughts on how the 5d3 will compare on dxo mark to the Nikon D800?
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2012, 09:22:57 AM »
I sincerely don't get the fuss about 12/13/14 stops of DR. From what I've read, both D800 and 5D3 use 14-bit ADCs.

With 14-bit ADCs, anything above ~10 stops is pretty much useless. An EV 10 stops from saturation (value 16383) registers as value 15 (without taking noise into account). That leaves a grand total of 15 luminance values to represent *all* the extra DR above that, and specifically 8 values for the next stop of DR.

Now, if the cameras happen to use 16-bit ADCs, then they've got two extra stops of usable DR.

IMO SNR at 18% is far more important as far as IQ goes.

peederj

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Re: Any thoughts on how the 5d3 will compare on dxo mark to the Nikon D800?
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2012, 09:30:00 AM »
I sincerely don't get the fuss about 12/13/14 stops of DR. From what I've read, both D800 and 5D3 use 14-bit ADCs.

With 14-bit ADCs, anything above ~10 stops is pretty much useless. An EV 10 stops from saturation (value 16383) registers as value 15 (without taking noise into account). That leaves a grand total of 15 luminance values to represent *all* the extra DR above that, and specifically 8 values for the next stop of DR.

Now, if the cameras happen to use 16-bit ADCs, then they've got two extra stops of usable DR.

IMO SNR at 18% is far more important as far as IQ goes.

Your analysis does not jive with my understanding of DSP at all. I am not an expert at camera sensors so I won't provide an alternative explanation, but I do not believe your math is properly applied here practically.

Arun

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Re: Any thoughts on how the 5d3 will compare on dxo mark to the Nikon D800?
« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2012, 09:32:50 AM »
Well, the tests are not rubbish, you just have to know how to interpret them.

The problem is how to normalize measurements between sensors of different sizes and different pixel densities.  DxOMark has a standard way of doing it.

The thing to remember is that one gains dynamic range, and noise performance as one downsamples.  Further, since the DxO ISO score is based on the highest ISO at which 9 eV of dynamic range and a suitable signal-to-noise ratio both exist, and as you downsample you gain both dynamic range and signal-to-noise, the ISO score also grows correspondingly.

For instance, the D800 in the fullframe (FX) mode will have higher DxOMark scores (by a stop or so) than the very same D800 in the crop (DX) mode.

DxOMark could have chosen some other single size, say 16 Megapixels, that changes all of the scores by a fixed amount.  But in effect, DxOMark is trying to answer the question, how would cameras compare at a fixed print size.

I think the measure that pixel peepers want is, how would cameras compare if each pixel was printed at a fixed size (so that a high megapixel camera would have a larger printout than a low megapixel one).  That is also a legitimate measure to ask for, but that is not what DxOMark provides.

stve

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Re: Any thoughts on how the 5d3 will compare on dxo mark to the Nikon D800?
« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2012, 11:07:44 AM »
For more depth of field use the wide end of your zoom range.
If you are someone who shoots jpeg then maybe the 5DMKIII it has very good jpeg at high iso straight out of the camera.
If you shoot raw the D800 is just as good as the 5DMKIII .
Frame rate is not going to make any difference.
Which camera can autofocus best is going to matter most my guess is the D800 will be better wait for the reviews to find out for sure.

psolberg

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Re: Any thoughts on how the 5d3 will compare on dxo mark to the Nikon D800?
« Reply #41 on: March 27, 2012, 12:11:03 PM »
Well, the tests are not rubbish, you just have to know how to interpret them.

The problem is how to normalize measurements between sensors of different sizes and different pixel densities.  DxOMark has a standard way of doing it.

The thing to remember is that one gains dynamic range, and noise performance as one downsamples.  Further, since the DxO ISO score is based on the highest ISO at which 9 eV of dynamic range and a suitable signal-to-noise ratio both exist, and as you downsample you gain both dynamic range and signal-to-noise, the ISO score also grows correspondingly.

For instance, the D800 in the fullframe (FX) mode will have higher DxOMark scores (by a stop or so) than the very same D800 in the crop (DX) mode.

DxOMark could have chosen some other single size, say 16 Megapixels, that changes all of the scores by a fixed amount.  But in effect, DxOMark is trying to answer the question, how would cameras compare at a fixed print size.

I think the measure that pixel peepers want is, how would cameras compare if each pixel was printed at a fixed size (so that a high megapixel camera would have a larger printout than a low megapixel one).  That is also a legitimate measure to ask for, but that is not what DxOMark provides.

I couldn't agree more with your last paragraph. I do value the dxo score because I print to a target size based on customer needs and not based on a fixed pixel size. If I did the later, I'd end up selling an 8x10 that won't fit on the 8x10 frame the customer has  ;D For me, and I suspect for most people (which is why DXO does what they do), we target a size and want to know what different cameras can do at that size. The choice may be different each time, but as you say, the results are shifted by a similar amount and thus no cameras swap places.

There is a lot of talk about doing per-pixel comparisons, but I find those more entertaining than useful because I don't sell 100% crops of a jpg at PC monitor resolution, no customer has ever asked for a 100% crop before buying, and I know for a fact that whatever I see on the screen will never look the same printed since it depends on the printer quality, printing method, medium quality and type, final output size, viewing distance, viewing conditions, etc. So when I see people obsessing over the shadows under a rock at ISO12800, and not even think about if the image had to be taken like that, or what the final display medium will be, I can't help but to laugh in disbelief.  ;D

I just hope my eyes survive the flood of bad pictures taken with bad light ISO51K just because they could.  8)

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Any thoughts on how the 5d3 will compare on dxo mark to the Nikon D800?
« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2012, 01:57:43 PM »
I sincerely don't get the fuss about 12/13/14 stops of DR. From what I've read, both D800 and 5D3 use 14-bit ADCs.

With 14-bit ADCs, anything above ~10 stops is pretty much useless. An EV 10 stops from saturation (value 16383) registers as value 15 (without taking noise into account). That leaves a grand total of 15 luminance values to represent *all* the extra DR above that, and specifically 8 values for the next stop of DR.

Now, if the cameras happen to use 16-bit ADCs, then they've got two extra stops of usable DR.

IMO SNR at 18% is far more important as far as IQ goes.

The 14.4 stops numbers and such are from DxO normalizing to 8MP photos. So the 5D2 is listed for 8MP norm at say 11.8 but just measuring it, as is, off the camera, it is more like 11.2. Also you don't appear to be doing the number right.

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Re: Any thoughts on how the 5d3 will compare on dxo mark to the Nikon D800?
« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2012, 01:57:43 PM »

grahamsz

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Re: Any thoughts on how the 5d3 will compare on dxo mark to the Nikon D800?
« Reply #43 on: March 27, 2012, 02:07:57 PM »
Your analysis does not jive with my understanding of DSP at all. I am not an expert at camera sensors so I won't provide an alternative explanation, but I do not believe your math is properly applied here practically.

My understanding, and it's been nearly a decade since I did this stuff in school is that you've got 14 bits therefore 16,384 possible brightness levels.

Each stop of brightness has twice as much light as the previous.

So the top stop in your exposure will have 8192 levels in it, stop 2 will have 4096, then 2048, then 1024 then stop 5 will have 512 levels. You can see where this is going, but stop 10 will only have 8 levels in it - while there is value to those levels being smooth, there is a pretty fundamental problem when it comes to using them to extract detail.

Now if dxo are downsampling the image then that helps some. If you've got 4 pixels going into one, then I think (if I recall correctly) that gives you an extra 2 bits of usable range.

This is where HDR shines. If you do a +2, 0, -2 HDR bracket - you have 8192 levels in stop 1, 4096 levels in stop 2, 10240 levels in stop 3, 5120 levels in stop 4, 10752 levels in stop 5, 5376 levels in stop 6, 2688 levels in stop 7, 1344 levels in stop 8, 672 levels in stop 9, 336 levels in stop 10, 168 levels in stop 11 and so on...

Search for ETTR for more discussion on this.

grahamsz

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Re: Any thoughts on how the 5d3 will compare on dxo mark to the Nikon D800?
« Reply #44 on: March 27, 2012, 02:16:42 PM »
but stop 10 will only have 8 levels in it - while there is value to those levels being smooth, there is a pretty fundamental problem when it comes to using them to extract detail

This is also an area where I'm a little skeptical that we can trust raw's rawness.

For that 10th stop, the camera will be reading out lumience values like

0,2,2,6,2,7,7,4,7,3,7,4,5,5,4,3,2,0,6,0,4,2,5,3

Since people aren't really using that range to find detail, I can see it being really tempting for a camera designer to clip them or apply some kind of noise reduction or binning on the data coming off the camera. That would give nice clean blacks and people do like those.

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Re: Any thoughts on how the 5d3 will compare on dxo mark to the Nikon D800?
« Reply #44 on: March 27, 2012, 02:16:42 PM »