Canon Cinema EOS 4K Camera [CR1]

[gene_can_sing]

I think a 5D form factor would be perfect. not too big (like the 1D) and not too small (like the GH2). I definitely don't want it tall like the 1D. Also, most people who have been "liberated" from the tradition camcorder box style video cameras DON'T want to go back. Shooting with the DSLR form is so NICE for video. Easy to handhold, smaller and more portable. Just makes sense.

The 4K CDSLR needs to come SOON. The 5D3 is a BIG letdown because of the low resolution. Canon is losing a lot of ground and business to the Sony FS-100, more so now with the Metabone EOS adaptor. I'm giving Canon till NAB to see what they have, or else I might also have to go the FS-100 route like so many others are. I just can't wait any longer for a decent video solution from Canon. They just keep letting down the video people time and time again.

[Neeneko]

They just keep letting down the video people time and time again.

Letting down?
I think Canon has made it rather clear that the video crowd is so important to them that they will not even produce a camera anymore without building it to meet their uses.  Videoagraphers are the current chosen people of Canon's marketing department.

And why in the world do you need a budget 4K camera in the first place?  The vast majority of video shooters will never be displaying their material in a medium that can actually show 4K.  Even a lot of movie theaters have not converted to it.   Is this just another version of the megapixel fetish?  I can see some people needing that resolution, like people who actually need a MF digial back and such, they are not doing budget range work.

[gene_can_sing]

Neenko. I work in Television and we have a very large green screen at our studio, so a 4K camera would be nice. What I really want it TRUE 1080p, unlike what Canon is currently offering the new 5D3 which is still up-res'd 720, so the image is soft.

And YES, Canon is continually letting down the video people. With all their Digic 4 releases, they never fixed the moire / aliasing problem that started with the 5D2. The subsequent 7D, T2i, 60D and T3i all had the same un-fixed video issues.

Then canon released the C-300. At $16,000, it's truly overprice especially considering it does not have 10 bit compression nor 1080p 60fps. Canon does not have a mid-range video solution (between $3K to $6K) that is satisfactory.

The 5D3 comes out, and the video is STILL up-res'd 700 lines which results in the same soft image.

What most video people wanted in the 5D3 was just 3 things 1) no Moire 2) no aliasing 3) True 1080p HD. Canon did 2 out of the 3, but still didn't do the 3rd major request of TRUE 1000 line HD.

For the Stills crowd, the 5D3 is great. For the video people, Canon is still playing games and people are getting really tire of waiting. That's why they need to release the 4K C-DSLR soon. For me, 4K isn't super important. I just want good 2K resolution, which Canon does not currently offer except in the $16,000 C-300.

[bluegreenturtle]

They just keep letting down the video people time and time again.

Letting down?
I think Canon has made it rather clear that the video crowd is so important to them that they will not even produce a camera anymore without building it to meet their uses.  Videoagraphers are the current chosen people of Canon's marketing department.

And why in the world do you need a budget 4K camera in the first place?  The vast majority of video shooters will never be displaying their material in a medium that can actually show 4K.  Even a lot of movie theaters have not converted to it.   Is this just another version of the megapixel fetish?  I can see some people needing that resolution, like people who actually need a MF digial back and such, they are not doing budget range work.

acquisition format is not delivery format. 

[Neeneko]

Neenko. I work in Television and we have a very large green screen at our studio, so a 4K camera would be nice. What I really want it TRUE 1080p, unlike what Canon is currently offering the new 5D3 which is still up-res'd 720, so the image is soft.

Ok, I can see for cropping down from a large image,  though generally if you are going the 'shoot large, crop later' solution too often it indicates camera placement or lenses should probably be different.

And YES, Canon is continually letting down the video people. With all their Digic 4 releases, they never fixed the moire / aliasing problem that started with the 5D2. The subsequent 7D, T2i, 60D and T3i all had the same un-fixed video issues.

Most do not seem to consider this an issue, if it is then one might need to upgrade to a better camera.  Not putting the best stuff into budget solutions is NOT the same as 'letting down video people'.  I would love a MF view camera for the price of a mid range Canon DSLR, but I do not consider Canon failing to produce such a low cost model to be 'failing photographers'.

Then canon released the C-300. At $16,000, it's truly overprice especially considering it does not have 10 bit compression nor 1080p 60fps. Canon does not have a mid-range video solution (between $3K to $6K) that is satisfactory.

Satisfactory is relative.  Canon has a huge range of video offerings, far wider then their photography ones.  Cheaper models are not as good, more expensive ones are better.  If a compeditor produces a model that has higher quality at a low price point then go with them, but do not expect Canon to magically pull down the prices of all their higher end units.

The 5D3 comes out, and the video is STILL up-res'd 700 lines which results in the same soft image.

So?  It is a budget 'pro' hybrid camera.   If you want something better then get a dedicated video camera designed for professional use, and be happy that Canon has been putting in so much work to produce something as high quality for such a low price point as they have, which has worked very well for many professionals already.

For the Stills crowd, the 5D3 is great. For the video people, Canon is still playing games and people are getting really tire of waiting. That's why they need to release the 4K C-DSLR soon. For me, 4K isn't super important. I just want good 2K resolution, which Canon does not currently offer except in the $16,000 C-300.

Not really.  Segments of the stills crowd are happy with it, but other segments are pretty disappointed and point out that the camera was apparently designed with the video crown in mind.   Canon will not even consider making dedicated still cameras anymore.

[Neeneko]

Sorry, I know I am being a bit harsh.  I guess I am still grumpy from all those threads with video people telling the stills crowd to shut up because we are obsolete and multimedia DSLRs are the important future (because no one wants still images anymore), and we should just be happy with whatever leftovers we get... so hearing video people complain that they still are not getting enough priority (and cheap high end equipment) rubbed me the wrong way.

[Axilrod]

Why would I want a cinema camera to have the form factor of a 1D?! I won't be taking pictures with it, and heaven knows I won't be doing any portrait video work with it.

I'm also getting pretty impatient. I need a new camera but the 5DMIII isn't worth the jump. If their going to make us wait they should at least release specs so we know what we're waiting for.

What do you guys think? Would you want a video camera to have the form factor of the 1D?

I think it's a compromise, they are putting it into a body that may not be ideal so they can put a 4k sensor in there without driving the cost up.  Also, people have been shooting with the 5DII/7D for almost 4 years now, they have purchased lots of gear to make that form factor work so why let it go to waste?  I don't think anyone will complain honestly; video cameras are going in a modular direction, look at the RED, C300, FS100, they all require rigs and aren't an ideal shape either. 

And you can listen to the 5D3 haters all you want, but you don't know if it's not worth the upgrade unless you've tried it yourself.  I'm very happy with it.

[Axilrod]

If this is primarily going to be a video camera, wouldn't it make more sense to use the C300 body instead of the 1DX?

The c300 and all "video" bodies are stupid.
5D2 taught us that.
GH2 body would be perfect if the buttons weren't crap.  Add dials, weatherproofing, battery.

The lighter/smaller the bodies go, ohhh the places you'll go.
The camera is merely a storytelling element, and the increasing opportunity to put it in motion pushes the limit.

XLR is useless without a great preamp.

If they continue to ignore movie AF possibilites...  They're idiots.
Make it hunt slowly, in a unified direction (not hunting all over the place).
Use AF button to lock on the subject for the duration of recording (doesn't the iPhone have this??)
Or... How certain long L's have the focus recall, set multiple focus pts you can cycle between.
At the very least, they MUST combine face recognition with the digital zoom WHILE recording.
They wont.  Idiots.

It was easy to make autofocus systems for video cameras before, they had a fixed lens and tiny sensors and TONS of depth of field, everything is in focus practically so it's much easier to create a system for.  Throw 100 lenses into the mix with crazy shallow DOF, I'm sure it makes it difficult to create a cheap, reliable system.  I just dont think you would be able to trust it to do what you wanted everytime.  T

he motion picture industry has been using manual focus since it's inception, all the crossover photographers just need to get over it and do the same. 

[Shawn_Lights]

Why would I want a cinema camera to have the form factor of a 1D?! I won't be taking pictures with it, and heaven knows I won't be doing any portrait video work with it.

I'm also getting pretty impatient. I need a new camera but the 5DMIII isn't worth the jump. If their going to make us wait they should at least release specs so we know what we're waiting for.

What do you guys think? Would you want a video camera to have the form factor of the 1D?

One thing we filmmakers love about DSLRs is how small they are. Also still picture cameras are more accepted on the streets than video cameras. Trust me here in NY you'll get cops walking up to you if you're holding a video camera but they're fine with still cameras. Even if you explain to them that all the camera is doing is taking pictures very fast to create the illusion of motion lol.

So yes I'm happy it's in a DSLR form. That means I can be more versatile with where I place the camera and I can also blend in with the stills crowd, not drawing too much attention to myself. This also means that our current gear should work with this no problem.

They just need to price it right and give us some overall great features. If I was Canon I'll look at what the FS100 has and just top them with the 4k and price it like $1,000 more. Maybe around the $6,000 range.

[peederj]

I really do doubt this rumor because I think it conflates a bunch of different things that may or may not be in development.

The number one thing that falsifies the rumor is 4K in a 1-series chassis.

Where are you going to store all that data? On two CF cards? There just isn't enough room to cheaply stream all that data onto, and unlike stills, video productions can cost over $1,000 an hour to re-shoot should memory fail. So anyone ambitious enough to try to shoot 4K will want redundant storage...and as mentioned, it's ridiculous to suggest a portable SLR form factor if you're going to require external storage anyway.

So I do believe Canon will develop a "C" DSLR intended for video purposes.

I do not believe for a minute that it will be 4K resolution, not this year or next. Maybe 2015.

I do believe Canon will develop a 4K followup to the C300. C400 perhaps. That might appear in 2013.

Fs100-Metabones is a serious competitor to the C300. It may exert a lot of price pressure on that system. But I think what's going on is Canon is servicing the rental market with its current prices, figuring anyone who needs C300 features is going to rent. People who want to own can wait or look elsewhere. Or just be happy with the all-rounder 5d3 as I am.