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Author Topic: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]  (Read 42045 times)

D_Rochat

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #75 on: March 25, 2012, 10:34:30 PM »
The 5D MK II is still selling well. The 5D MK III has sold very well right out of the gates. So tell me why Canon needs to make a 36 mega pixel camera???

I'm with you there and I'm just waiting to get the mkIII myself, but there is a market for high mp bodies. People will buy it.

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #75 on: March 25, 2012, 10:34:30 PM »

XanuFoto

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #76 on: March 25, 2012, 10:38:57 PM »
There could be a market for high MP bodies. But most Nikon wedding photogs I know say they are sticking with the D700. So this market is limited to Landscape and Studio photographers. Most serious studio guys use MF and not many Landscape photographers are money owners. So I am not sure who these High Mp buyers will be.

Terry Rogers

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #77 on: March 25, 2012, 10:39:47 PM »
The 5D MK II is still selling well. The 5D MK III has sold very well right out of the gates. So tell me why Canon needs to make a 36 mega pixel camera???

I'm with you there and I'm just waiting to get the mkIII myself, but there is a market for high mp bodies. People will buy it.

Agreed. I'm sure Canon will be watching Nikon eagerly to see how the d800 does. If it does extremely well, it will only be a matter of time before canon releases their own megapixel monster. If there is significant money to be made in that market, then I'm sure canon will try and get a piece of that action. Then many of those who switched systems to buy a d800 might regret their short sightedness.

If the d800 doesn't do well, Canon will be laughing all the way to the bank.
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CatfishSoupFTW

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #78 on: March 25, 2012, 10:44:45 PM »
as unlikely as a entry level fullframe, i couldnt see what they could do. maybe remove AF points? i dunno :S but i wouldnt mind that at the same time, as long as its more than the usual 9.
5DmrkII, 40D, 24-105 F4L, 50mm 1.8, 17-85, 70-300

stabmasterasron

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #79 on: March 25, 2012, 10:48:02 PM »
By the way, I don't think the demand is for aps-c, I think the demand is for a capable camera at a reasonable cost.  If you dropped a FF sensor in a weather sealed 70D, i don't think the sensor size would impede sales.

People still want the APS-C for many reasons. Cost is definatley one of them, but reach is the big one. Bird and other wildlife types like the extra reach at no extra cost. They can effectively turn a 400mm to a 640mm with the APS-C. Add a 1.4 converter and you have a 896mm reach or 1280 with a 2X.

The APS-C brigade have explained why they still want and need one on this very forum many times. Then there is also the EF-S argument mentioned above. My heart won't be broken if they do away with that sensor, I just don't think it's going to happen yet. At least not on the xxD line.

But that "reach" is only because the sensor is smaller.  And the optics of the camera are set up for that smaller sensor.  As I said before, when EVF's take over optical view finders (yes this will happen eventually), you can still have your "crop" sensor for free, with a crop mode on the EVF and the image being automatically cropped in camera if you want it to. 

But I understand that these changes may be a long way off.  And for now, yes, the reach thing with aps-c is still valid.  So for the time being, aps-c has more use than just cheapness.  But when faced with the problem of differentiating dslr's from compact mirrorless, will Canon keep an aps-c around just for "reach"?

D_Rochat

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #80 on: March 25, 2012, 10:52:52 PM »
There could be a market for high MP bodies. But most Nikon wedding photogs I know say they are sticking with the D700. So this market is limited to Landscape and Studio photographers. Most serious studio guys use MF and not many Landscape photographers are money owners. So I am not sure who these High Mp buyers will be.

I've heard the same and the new mkIII makes for the must have wedding body as well, but there's got to be a reason why the D800 is Amazon's top selling camera (not just DSLR) right now. I won't buy a mp monster, but there are people who want them for what ever reason.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 10:58:14 PM by D_Rochat »

maxxevv

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #81 on: March 25, 2012, 10:53:55 PM »

My entry lvl full frame would be...

5dmkii sensor (to cut costs as I'm sure they have decreased manufacturing costs over the years and it's still a wonderful sensor). Alternatively, 1dx or 5d3 sensor, which ever is less expensive to manufacture. Though I think the lower MP 1dx sensor would be more forgiving to cheap lenses.
Rebel quality body with an articulating screen.
Rebel quality AF system
3-4 fps
~96% view finder
EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS kit lens; or a new, inexpensive 28 - 85ish mm f3.5 - 5.6 IS lens with silent autofocus
Digic V
Single SD slot
Small rebel level image buffer
pop up flash (with speedlight control)

If all that could be priced for $1600 (or $1250 body only), I suspect consumers would be blown away by the image quality and low light ability as compared to current rebels.

In my opinion, such a camera would place the full frame digital world into the hands of the masses. I have no doubt Best Buy sales people could be instructed to sell all the advantages full frame offers over a crop sensor.

You know, I have almost exactly the same idea !!!

Give and take a few minor differences in overall specifications :

- Everything you'll find in a T4i ( AF, Buffer, SD card, pop-up flash, viewfinder specs, articulated screen etc, etc... )
- In order of probability in sensor used : 5dII, 5DIII, 1DX
- Body size of the 60D
- Limited video 1080p 30fps only (no other options)
- Digic V ( not the '+' version )
- US$1500 (body only)

And it'll turn the market on its head once again like how the original 300D or Rebel did!!!



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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #81 on: March 25, 2012, 10:53:55 PM »

D_Rochat

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #82 on: March 25, 2012, 10:54:50 PM »
By the way, I don't think the demand is for aps-c, I think the demand is for a capable camera at a reasonable cost.  If you dropped a FF sensor in a weather sealed 70D, i don't think the sensor size would impede sales.

People still want the APS-C for many reasons. Cost is definatley one of them, but reach is the big one. Bird and other wildlife types like the extra reach at no extra cost. They can effectively turn a 400mm to a 640mm with the APS-C. Add a 1.4 converter and you have a 896mm reach or 1280 with a 2X.

The APS-C brigade have explained why they still want and need one on this very forum many times. Then there is also the EF-S argument mentioned above. My heart won't be broken if they do away with that sensor, I just don't think it's going to happen yet. At least not on the xxD line.

But that "reach" is only because the sensor is smaller.  And the optics of the camera are set up for that smaller sensor.  As I said before, when EVF's take over optical view finders (yes this will happen eventually), you can still have your "crop" sensor for free, with a crop mode on the EVF and the image being automatically cropped in camera if you want it to. 

But I understand that these changes may be a long way off.  And for now, yes, the reach thing with aps-c is still valid.  So for the time being, aps-c has more use than just cheapness.  But when faced with the problem of differentiating dslr's from compact mirrorless, will Canon keep an aps-c around just for "reach"?

Time will tell.

XanuFoto

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #83 on: March 25, 2012, 11:06:11 PM »
There could be a market for high MP bodies. But most Nikon wedding photogs I know say they are sticking with the D700. So this market is limited to Landscape and Studio photographers. Most serious studio guys use MF and not many Landscape photographers are money owners. So I am not sure who these High Mp buyers will be.

I've heard the same and the new mkIII makes for the must have wedding body as well, but there's got to be a reason why the D800 is Amazon's top selling camera (not just DSLR) right now. I won't buy a mp monster, but there are people who want them for what ever reason.
It will be interesting to see who these buyers are. Nikon definitely gave he razor away cheap and is hoping to make money on the blades (lenses and accessories). Whether these buyers will then sepnd the money of the accessories is the issue. The money is made on lenses and flashes.

Terry Rogers

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #84 on: March 25, 2012, 11:08:44 PM »
By the way, I don't think the demand is for aps-c, I think the demand is for a capable camera at a reasonable cost.  If you dropped a FF sensor in a weather sealed 70D, i don't think the sensor size would impede sales.

People still want the APS-C for many reasons. Cost is definatley one of them, but reach is the big one. Bird and other wildlife types like the extra reach at no extra cost. They can effectively turn a 400mm to a 640mm with the APS-C. Add a 1.4 converter and you have a 896mm reach or 1280 with a 2X.

The APS-C brigade have explained why they still want and need one on this very forum many times. Then there is also the EF-S argument mentioned above. My heart won't be broken if they do away with that sensor, I just don't think it's going to happen yet. At least not on the xxD line.

But that "reach" is only because the sensor is smaller.  And the optics of the camera are set up for that smaller sensor.  As I said before, when EVF's take over optical view finders (yes this will happen eventually), you can still have your "crop" sensor for free, with a crop mode on the EVF and the image being automatically cropped in camera if you want it to. 

But I understand that these changes may be a long way off.  And for now, yes, the reach thing with aps-c is still valid.  So for the time being, aps-c has more use than just cheapness.  But when faced with the problem of differentiating dslr's from compact mirrorless, will Canon keep an aps-c around just for "reach"?

The d800 has the same "reach" as a ~15mp crop camera (same pixel density). I believe that as processor power increases (digic VI?) and memory write speed increases, cameras will be able to handle 40+mp files at 7-8 fps. Alternatively, as nikon already does, offer an aps-c crop mode (dx mode), thus taking the strain off the memory and processor power to handle extremely large files. Such a  camera fitted with an f/8 sensetive autofocus point would be an increadible wildlife/nature tool. The crop "reach" and pixel density when you put on your telephotos to shoot the wildlife (with the much needed f/8 autofocus point) and the massive resolution for landscapes. The best of both worlds. All you're sacrificing is low light sensitivity (and possibly diffraction induced softness, but that's a whole other topic). If low light is your concern, then buy a 5diii. Or, offer pixel binning in the 40+mp camera when shooting small raw files (20mp?) and you could conceivably increase the low light capabilities by another stop.
Rebel T3i,  EF-S 17-55 f2.8 IS, 430 EX II

BestExposures

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #85 on: March 25, 2012, 11:43:05 PM »
This post has many parts, the bottom one is my review of the 5D3 after a week with it.

1st - Ummm, Correct me if I am wrong - but the 5D3 I am holding in my hand, isn't that the replacement for the 5D2, just as the 5D2 was the replacement for the 5D?

2nd note - I read about a new lens mount, not sure why Canon (or its clients for that matter) would support that kind of idea.  If Canon is going to play games, and basically require us all to buy new glass - I can tell you now that I will, as many others will, leave the Canon brand.  If on the other hand, they have two models, like they do the C300 - fine, let them do whatever they want.  But I made a decision to go with Canon only a few years ago, and I can easily change my decision if they plan on forcing us to reinvest into glass all over again.  I would like to ask other Canon owners to stand with me, refusing to buy into a new lens mount paradigm.  I will actually go so far as to contact Canon owners and do a call campaign to keep them from that product.

I like your forum, been reading it for years now.  This message is for the Canon R&D guys to read carefully, not against you, as I can tell by your comment that you feel the same way about the lens mount issue.  I don't even want to have to use a converter - the more points of contact, the less weather sealed it will be.  But at the very least, yes, there better be a converter.  And it better be free if they are going to pull this crap on us.

part 3- As for the 5D3 - I am a HUGE fan.  I have been playing with it for about a week now, and I have to admit that the tweaks are very significant.  The 5D2, sitting next to it on my desk is a fantastic camera as it is, we all know that, but the 5D3 is obviously a product of many peoples input, and they took it all into consideration when they released this model.  I would like to see the time restriction removed for US bound models - I understand the problem in the UK.  But for me, that would be a fantastic programming update, even if it costs money, because when I am shooting a wedding, I have never once been happy to stop and restart the recording.  The low light is at least 3-4 stops better, and the expanded ISO range (H2) is fantastic, its nearly night vision!!  I have some sample pictures, unedited because adobe is still working on the file type - but it shows how crisp, clean, vibrant the images are.  But I did find a flaw.... I have already on two occasions have the lens unlock and detach from the body without warning. Something that has NEVER happened to me on any body in the history of my life - happened twice in two weeks.  I will let you all know what Canon says about this.  I am also working on shooting video and stills side by side with the 5D2/5D3 to show the difference.  I know its just a megapixel difference, and people who count MP's as the "end all, be all of human existence" - Ferris B., I would suggest they buy the newest Nokia camera phone with over 40MP's.... but I now understand what Nikon owners were saying about quality over quantity.  This 22MP sensor is fantastic.  I hope those of you who that are thinking whether or not to buy one, chose to get one.  Not because I own stock (which I don't) but because you will very quickly realize, as I have, that this sensor is a whole new ball game, and Canon just hit a Grand-Slam. 

I don't use a lot of HDR, but the in camera HDR is actually usable.  Sure, you can blow it out of proportions and make it nasty or hard to look at, but you can control the HDR down to a normal level, all without software.  I shot a few pictures at the park, and the onboard HDR actually made the shot look like a medium format quality picture.  Adding just a little to the image.  Side by side with the original I can see how much just a little boost can do.  Most of my previous dealings with HDR were not as great.  But the fact that you can control the HDR - and use it wisely or go nuts with it, there are various degrees to choose from.  When you add this to the various picture styles the number of outcomes is truly infinite.  I also like the fact you can have more than 3 shots in the AEB settings.  without picking up the camera two feet away I think its either 7 or 9 images... ok, ok, let me look here.... ok, its 7, but each can be up to  /-3, so that can go from  9 to -9!!!  and another option is multiple exposures - and that has up to 9.  Haven't used that yet though. 

The number of AF points is fantastic - and although I will probably never use this, you can use them to display the electronic level in the viewfinder.  Thats not useful to me, but maybe someone needs that... in any case, its neat. But the other, more normal uses for those AF points are much more important and useful.  It even lets you have a different set AF point for landscape and portrait.  I don't think the 6D2 had that, did it? 

The Dual cards are great, and they give you a lot of options on how to use them. I personally will use one as my primary, and one as a backup of my wedding shots when a corrupted card can get you sued.  This way, before you ever back up your files, you already backed up all your files.  FANTASTIC.  But you can also use them so that one can playback while the other records, or auto switch when one is full.  Two other options that I don't quite understand fully, gotta play with it more... aw shucks, I'm gonna hate playing with my brand new camera LOL

Sorry this is so long, being my first post I wanted to really JUMP IN and get yelled at by all of you at once :)  JK.

Jason
Best Exposures Photography
www.bestexposures.com
Chicago, IL



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<strong>Odds & Ends<br />


</strong>A know source has mentioned a couple of things in regards to products coming in late 2012.</p>
<p><strong>Mirrorless Announcement

</strong>I’m told that Canon’s foray into the mirrorless world will begin in August with an announcement. Photokina is in September, so it makes a lot of sense to announce at the end of summer.</p>
<p><strong>New Full Frame

</strong>A suggestion that Canon will announce an “entry level” full frame camera in the fall of 2012. A true replacement to the 5D Mark II?</p>
<p>That would bring about 4 new full frame cameras in the span of about a year if we include the coming 4K DSLR. Most assume that will be a full frame camera.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>


rpt

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #86 on: March 26, 2012, 12:04:03 AM »

The balancing factor here is that less experienced photographers appreciate more megapixels for greater crop flexibility to compensate for their ability to not quite get the framing right all of the time.


So true! Frame it right. It isn't that hard once you know what you want - that is the hard part :).

eijnaix

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #87 on: March 26, 2012, 12:09:46 AM »
I'm hopping canon comes up witha retro style mirrorless and a  that beat FujiFlim X-Pro1 , totally impressed with their highly rated lens and IQ except their AF system......

I'm holding it back till year end before i get that bad ass x-pro1....hope canon can come up with something

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #87 on: March 26, 2012, 12:09:46 AM »

Marsu42

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #88 on: March 26, 2012, 01:27:07 AM »
There's no such thing as an "entry level" full-frame camera...makes zero sense marketing/business wise.

It does make sense for Canon to keep people on their eos *platform*.

Some people here constantly advise crop users to use ef L lenses, but while they are usable they actually aren't made for aps-c. So with a crop body, when the 5d2 will be phased out it's the decision: 3500 bucks for a body to start with or a crop camara with ef-s lenses? And since the competition is closing in, many people might choose the third option and jump ship to non-Canon (mirrorless) or system cameras.

We all know a body is only the start of one's investment in photography: more and better lenses are sure to follow, and there's more money to be made for Canon here than from current mass-market entry level dslrs plus your average kit lens or one 15-85 upgrade.

x-vision

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #89 on: March 26, 2012, 02:00:26 AM »
There is definitely a market for a $2000 full frame camera.

Yes ... and the 5DII covers this market already.
It will also cover it during the holidays this year and in early 2013.

After that, the 5DIII will start dropping in price and in 18-24 months will sell (like hotcakes) for $2500.
When the price drops to that level (and below), it will leave room in the lineup for a new $3000-3500 body with 30+ megapixels.

So, as other posters have said, no room for a  NEW $2000 FF from Canon right now - and in the next four-five years.
Who knows after that.

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #89 on: March 26, 2012, 02:00:26 AM »