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Author Topic: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]  (Read 43123 times)

takoman46

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #150 on: March 27, 2012, 06:34:47 AM »
It makes sense for it to be crappier than a 5DmkII if it is an "entry-level" FF camera.  The term "entry-level" means exactly that. The "5D" line is not "entry-level" right? So it would be outlandish to think that the "entry level" FF camera would outperform the 5DmkII. Although the 5DmkII is 4 years old, it is still only 1 generation old so it is impossible for Canon to add another FF camera to the lineup that is deemed "entry level" but yet outperforms a higher end FF body that is likely still widely used by many many photographers.

Wrong.

The entry level FF camera only has to be inferior to the 5D3. Thus it could be almost identical to the 5D2. Consider that the current price point ($2199) of the 5D2 is almost exactly where an entry level full frame camera would be. Maybe plus or minus $200.

An entry level FF camera would  be put into the product lineup relative to the 5D3 and the 60D or its successor.

What you just stated doesn't make any sense in the benefit to Canon in sales. If a new camera offers around the same performance as the 5DmkII at a similar price... then why would people buy it? They would just keep using the 5DmkII. So if Canon were to do exactly what you stated, they would have to spend a lot of money in developing, testing, producing, and marketing a different camera that would hurt their existing 5DmkII sales (since they are keeping the 5DmkII in production in the forseeable future). Note that Canon has not indicated that the 5DmkII will be discontinued when the entry level FF camera becomes available.

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #150 on: March 27, 2012, 06:34:47 AM »

dilbert

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #151 on: March 27, 2012, 06:53:36 AM »
It makes sense for it to be crappier than a 5DmkII if it is an "entry-level" FF camera.  The term "entry-level" means exactly that. The "5D" line is not "entry-level" right? So it would be outlandish to think that the "entry level" FF camera would outperform the 5DmkII. Although the 5DmkII is 4 years old, it is still only 1 generation old so it is impossible for Canon to add another FF camera to the lineup that is deemed "entry level" but yet outperforms a higher end FF body that is likely still widely used by many many photographers.

Wrong.

The entry level FF camera only has to be inferior to the 5D3. Thus it could be almost identical to the 5D2. Consider that the current price point ($2199) of the 5D2 is almost exactly where an entry level full frame camera would be. Maybe plus or minus $200.

An entry level FF camera would  be put into the product lineup relative to the 5D3 and the 60D or its successor.

What you just stated doesn't make any sense in the benefit to Canon in sales. If a new camera offers around the same performance as the 5DmkII at a similar price... then why would people buy it? They would just keep using the 5DmkII. So if Canon were to do exactly what you stated, they would have to spend a lot of money in developing, testing, producing, and marketing a different camera that would hurt their existing 5DmkII sales (since they are keeping the 5DmkII in production in the forseeable future). Note that Canon has not indicated that the 5DmkII will be discontinued when the entry level FF camera becomes available.

Go back and read all of the comments in this thread.

itsnotmeyouknow

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #152 on: March 27, 2012, 07:13:08 AM »
It makes sense for it to be crappier than a 5DmkII if it is an "entry-level" FF camera.  The term "entry-level" means exactly that. The "5D" line is not "entry-level" right? So it would be outlandish to think that the "entry level" FF camera would outperform the 5DmkII. Although the 5DmkII is 4 years old, it is still only 1 generation old so it is impossible for Canon to add another FF camera to the lineup that is deemed "entry level" but yet outperforms a higher end FF body that is likely still widely used by many many photographers.

Wrong.

The entry level FF camera only has to be inferior to the 5D3. Thus it could be almost identical to the 5D2. Consider that the current price point ($2199) of the 5D2 is almost exactly where an entry level full frame camera would be. Maybe plus or minus $200.

An entry level FF camera would  be put into the product lineup relative to the 5D3 and the 60D or its successor.

What you just stated doesn't make any sense in the benefit to Canon in sales. If a new camera offers around the same performance as the 5DmkII at a similar price... then why would people buy it? They would just keep using the 5DmkII. So if Canon were to do exactly what you stated, they would have to spend a lot of money in developing, testing, producing, and marketing a different camera that would hurt their existing 5DmkII sales (since they are keeping the 5DmkII in production in the forseeable future). Note that Canon has not indicated that the 5DmkII will be discontinued when the entry level FF camera becomes available.

It would have to be inferior to the 5D3 in some sense as otherwise you would have many disgruntle mkIII owners (me being one of them) if a supeior model was cheaper.  I wouldn't be surprised to see a FF version of the 7D.  They might even call t the 7D mk II or 7DX

nentraC

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #153 on: March 27, 2012, 08:30:46 AM »
It makes sense for it to be crappier than a 5DmkII if it is an "entry-level" FF camera.  The term "entry-level" means exactly that. The "5D" line is not "entry-level" right? So it would be outlandish to think that the "entry level" FF camera would outperform the 5DmkII. Although the 5DmkII is 4 years old, it is still only 1 generation old so it is impossible for Canon to add another FF camera to the lineup that is deemed "entry level" but yet outperforms a higher end FF body that is likely still widely used by many many photographers.

Wrong.

The entry level FF camera only has to be inferior to the 5D3. Thus it could be almost identical to the 5D2. Consider that the current price point ($2199) of the 5D2 is almost exactly where an entry level full frame camera would be. Maybe plus or minus $200.

An entry level FF camera would  be put into the product lineup relative to the 5D3 and the 60D or its successor.

I think you just nailed it!  +1 to you

danski0224

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #154 on: March 27, 2012, 08:30:59 AM »
What you just stated doesn't make any sense in the benefit to Canon in sales. If a new camera offers around the same performance as the 5DmkII at a similar price... then why would people buy it? They would just keep using the 5DmkII. So if Canon were to do exactly what you stated, they would have to spend a lot of money in developing, testing, producing, and marketing a different camera that would hurt their existing 5DmkII sales (since they are keeping the 5DmkII in production in the forseeable future). Note that Canon has not indicated that the 5DmkII will be discontinued when the entry level FF camera becomes available.

What if Canon discontinues the current 5DII?

Canon could use the current 5DIII sensor, a morphed 7D-like AF system and maybe something like no video. Throw in a current Digic5 and lower the FPS.

Then, put it all into a current chassis and sell it as a new model for $1595. The 5DII (or, another new model variant) could still be sold including 5DIII-like video features at the $1995 price point. This is actually pretty easy to do because most changes are in the firmware. Heck, Canon could include the hardware (video jacks for example) but disable it through the firmware. If you want to upgrade your "basic" FF camera, send it in to enable the firmware. This elimiantes 2 production lines and parts groupings. Win Win, as long as the firmware upgrades are possible in the future, even for second or third hand equipment. Just like computer software, there would be a point where upgrades on old gear is not possible. 

Those that need what the 5DIII offers will buy that model instead. Therefore, it will not cannibalize 5DIII sales, but rather gain sales from those that can't swing or justify the 5DIII price point but still want the full frame experience... and more importantly, may be willing to choose a different brand.

Increased production of the 5DIII sensor only lowers costs and increases market share.

I predict that a ~$1500 basic full frame camera aimed at pictures and no (or limited) video would sell like hotcakes. What brand will release one first?

If Canon wants to increase market share, they need to do this. Once someone is invested in accessories, making a brand switch is more difficult.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 08:42:53 AM by danski0224 »
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sphax

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #155 on: March 27, 2012, 08:48:04 AM »
So if you sum up all of those last thoughts you had here a lot of people believe that Canon is gonna put in the market a new FF which would be better than the 5DmkII but priced around 2000$ ... I wonder how they can do that indeed, as for me the only option they have is to be better in some points (AF, processor) and worse on some others (body construction) in which case it shouldn't discontinue the sales of the 5DmkII as people could chose "do I want a better AF or a stronger body" ...
Or maybe I'm wrong and they have some magic trick to pay for development of something better than 5DmkII and really cheaper ... but I seriously doubt it ! Why ? Can I state here that you should see the latests announcements on "better-ization" of Canon equipments ? :

- Canon 5DmkII > 5DmkIII = roughly from 1900€ to 3300€ (sorry, I'm european)
- Canon 24-70L > Canon 24-70L II = from 1200€ to 2400€
- Canon 28mm F1,8 > Canon 28mm F/2,8 IS = from 450€ to 850€
- Canon 24mm F/2,8 > Canon 24mm F/2,8 IS = from 420€ to 850€

And those were all old designs so i'm pretty curious about how they can right now make something better than 5DmkII for even cheaper than the actual 5DmkII price .... !!!!

danski0224

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #156 on: March 27, 2012, 09:18:18 AM »
so i'm pretty curious about how they can right now make something better than 5DmkII for even cheaper than the actual 5DmkII price .... !!!!

Utilization of existing components for a new model.

More parts made = lower cost per part.

Better amortization of R&D into new part.

Who knows what Canon's actual cost per unit is? Maybe, the 5DIII costs them $2k USD to make, they sell it to dealers for $3000 USD and fix MSRP at $3499. Just a guess, I have no idea.

If Canon sells another FF camera with the 5DIII sensor, body and most of the innards, the cost of manufacturing each 5DIII just went down, so profits increase as long as sales are still made to distributors. 
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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #156 on: March 27, 2012, 09:18:18 AM »

sphax

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #157 on: March 27, 2012, 09:34:11 AM »
so i'm pretty curious about how they can right now make something better than 5DmkII for even cheaper than the actual 5DmkII price .... !!!!

Utilization of existing components for a new model.

More parts made = lower cost per part.

Better amortization of R&D into new part.

Who knows what Canon's actual cost per unit is? Maybe, the 5DIII costs them $2k USD to make, they sell it to dealers for $3000 USD and fix MSRP at $3499. Just a guess, I have no idea.

If Canon sells another FF camera with the 5DIII sensor, body and most of the innards, the cost of manufacturing each 5DIII just went down, so profits increase as long as sales are still made to distributors.

Well yeah you can always make some kind of Frankenstein camera from different cameras  ;D
But I guess you'll always have to develop some new once and then the price of development will have to be covered by the number of sales of course, because if you don't develop ANY new pieces how come that's a "new design" that people will wanna buy ?

birdman

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #158 on: March 27, 2012, 09:52:21 AM »
New entry level FF camera? C'mon Rumors. You must be itching for a little more traffic.

I absolutely do NOT believe it.
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danski0224

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #159 on: March 27, 2012, 09:58:09 AM »
Well yeah you can always make some kind of Frankenstein camera from different cameras  ;D
But I guess you'll always have to develop some new once and then the price of development will have to be covered by the number of sales of course, because if you don't develop ANY new pieces how come that's a "new design" that people will wanna buy ?

Frankenstein camera? I think not.

Just repackage the parts already being made.

Apple does the same stuff with the iPad. Do you *really* think there is an extra few hundred dollars worth of stuff in there from low end to high end?
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sphax

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #160 on: March 27, 2012, 10:09:57 AM »

Apple does the same stuff with the iPad.

Well everyone says here that this "entry-FF" should be more or less the same quality as the 5DmkII so you can't really compare : Apple just made a nice "four-times" multiplication on its screen resolution ... !

Anyway I think globally I just don't see the point of an entry FF who'd be about the same thing as a 5DmkII but re-designed, that's all.

dilbert

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #161 on: March 27, 2012, 10:28:24 AM »
So if you sum up all of those last thoughts you had here a lot of people believe that Canon is gonna put in the market a new FF which would be better than the 5DmkII but priced around 2000$

I don't know about "is" but Canon certainly could if they wanted to.

Quote
... I wonder how they can do that indeed, as for me the only option they have is to be better in some points (AF, processor) and worse on some others (body construction) in which case it shouldn't discontinue the sales of the 5DmkII as people could chose "do I want a better AF or a stronger body" ...

Repeat after me:

"The 5DmkII is 3.5 years old"


The list of things that I could see being different to the 5D3 are:
- body/build (well, maybe)
- autofocus - it will need to be a completely new design
- lower frame rate (probably 3fps) from a slower/cheaper cpu/chipset.
- view finder (can't see them doing 100%)
- no CF support, only SD (less electronics and cheaper?)
- pop up flash
- sensor is anyone's guess, from the 1DX sensor to the 5D3 sensor to something completely new.

dilbert

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #162 on: March 27, 2012, 10:40:36 AM »
Anyway I think globally I just don't see the point of an entry FF who'd be about the same thing as a 5DmkII but re-designed, that's all.

It would give them a chance to deliver it with autofocus that works, sensor that doesn't have banding, video that works by design rather than as an accidental afterthought.

It gives them a chance to introduce a new full frame camera at a price point that is obviously attractive to a lot of people.

With a $2000 full frame DSLR, someone could spend $3000 on just a Nikon D800 body or get a FF-entry level camera plus a lens (24-105). To someone with just crop lenses, which is the more attractive proposal?

And why wouldn't they go for a 5D2? Because it has been around for 3.5 years (you're buying old technology), isn't new, has a successor, has lots of issues (bad autofocus, for example) and that is going to be a harder sell to anyone that doesn't already have EF lenses.

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #162 on: March 27, 2012, 10:40:36 AM »

danski0224

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #163 on: March 27, 2012, 10:43:20 AM »
Well everyone says here that this "entry-FF" should be more or less the same quality as the 5DmkII so you can't really compare : Apple just made a nice "four-times" multiplication on its screen resolution ... !

Anyway I think globally I just don't see the point of an entry FF who'd be about the same thing as a 5DmkII but re-designed, that's all.

And that's all Apple provided is a nice screen. Worthwhile to some? Sure. The added processing speed and battery are directly related to the screen requirements. Apple did NOT include Siri in the New Ipad, for example. So, other than the display and the stuff to run the display, there is (gasp) nothing new, yet people are lining up to buy it. (glad the smite thing is gone :))

But, I do believe you missed my iPad point. The prices range from $499 to $829. The only changes are internal memory and Wi-Fi or Wi-Fi + 4G.

Do you really think there is $330 in extra parts in there? (hell no)

Do you really think they are making 6 different physical versions? (possible, but not likely)

Canon could do the same thing with a "re-vamped" "entry level" "5D" lineup.

They have the sensor. They have a current camera body. Different features enabled by processing can be disabled or locked out.

So yes, I really believe Canon could offer a stills oriented "new 5D" for $1499 if they wanted to. If the firmware side was upgradeable to enable video stuff, people would buy it. Same for AF features available within a given module.
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danski0224

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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #164 on: March 27, 2012, 10:56:09 AM »
It would have to be inferior to the 5D3 in some sense as otherwise you would have many disgruntle mkIII owners (me being one of them) if a supeior model was cheaper.  I wouldn't be surprised to see a FF version of the 7D.  They might even call t the 7D mk II or 7DX

Not superior, different.
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Re: Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]
« Reply #164 on: March 27, 2012, 10:56:09 AM »