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Author Topic: 7D + 300/2.8 + 1.4x or 5D3 + 300/2.8 + 2.0x  (Read 3451 times)

smirkypants

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7D + 300/2.8 + 1.4x or 5D3 + 300/2.8 + 2.0x
« on: March 30, 2012, 09:46:37 AM »
So someone I know who shoots polo is thinking about upgrading her gear. Right now her stuff is crap. She wants a 300/2.8 because it's relatively light, but not long enough. Then she asked me a simple question that I really had a hard time answering. Should she get:

7D + 300/2.8 + 1.4 extender... or
5D3 + 300/2.8 + 2.0 extender

The 5D3 combo starts off with better IQ but takes a bigger hit from the 2.0 extender. It has slightly more megapixels, but that's offset by the slightly shorter reach. You lose an additional stop of light, but the ISO performance of the 5D3 probably makes up for the difference.

The 7D starts off with worse IQ but takes a smaller hit from the extender and lets you keep an additional stop of light.

She said that the difference between 6fps and 8fps is not that important to her. She cares more, ultimately, about the IQ.

Thoughts?

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7D + 300/2.8 + 1.4x or 5D3 + 300/2.8 + 2.0x
« on: March 30, 2012, 09:46:37 AM »

colin1984

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Re: 7D + 300/2.8 + 1.4x or 5D3 + 300/2.8 + 2.0x
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2012, 09:56:09 AM »
Than i would suggest 5dMarkIII because it has definitly better IQ. and the Iso Range is also better, not to mention that the noise comparison, I mean FF has lower noising at same Iso like 7d; and can go even higher and and have altough better IQ an noising;

Short: I´d suggest the 5DIII
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Re: 7D + 300/2.8 + 1.4x or 5D3 + 300/2.8 + 2.0x
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2012, 10:16:13 AM »
Not only does the 2x deliver a bigger IQ hit, it also delivers a bigger AF speed hit (1.4x slows down the AF motor by 50%, 2x slows it down by 75%).  But the AI Servo tracking will be better with the 5DIII than with the 7D.

It's a tough call.  I'd probably go with the 5DIII, 300/2.8 and 2x, personally.
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smirkypants

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Re: 7D + 300/2.8 + 1.4x or 5D3 + 300/2.8 + 2.0x
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2012, 10:26:04 AM »
Not only does the 2x deliver a bigger IQ hit, it also delivers a bigger AF speed hit (1.4x slows down the AF motor by 50%, 2x slows it down by 75%).  But the AI Servo tracking will be better with the 5DIII than with the 7D.

It's a tough call.  I'd probably go with the 5DIII, 300/2.8 and 2x, personally.
It's really interesting how the strengths and deficiencies on the camera end almost perfectly balance out the strengths and deficiencies on the lens end.

I told her that ultimately I was unsure but that I would ask people who might know better than I. I think that the 5D3 is ultimately a better and more versatile machine, but there is a price difference of a couple grand as well.

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Re: 7D + 300/2.8 + 1.4x or 5D3 + 300/2.8 + 2.0x
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2012, 11:06:59 AM »
Your friend is in quite the pickle.

As they say: good, fast, cheap. Pick two.

She wants the 600mm equivalent reach, and she wants good image quality. *And* she wants something light.

I'd say her best bet is probably a 1DIV and a 400 f/2.8 II.

But it won't be cheap.

If she wants to do it on the cheap, she's either going to take a hit on the image quality or the weight.

Once you stick a supertelephoto on a monopod, weight isn't as much of a factor -- and, really, who even wants to handhold a 300 f/2.8?

So, with that in mind...well, KEH has a 600 f/4 right now for $8K, or a 400 f/2.8 II (non-IS) for $4750. I'd recommend the 400 with the 5DIII and a 1.4x TC, but only because I think she'd find it more versatile. But if that TC would remain permanently mounted, then either swap the 400 out for the 600 (best IQ and AF performance) or the 5DIII for a 7D.

Honestly, it doesn't sound like she'l be happy with a 300, no matter what. And, continuing in the honesty vein...if she's considering a supertelephoto but the price and / or weight of the one versus the other is a consideration, then she's not going to be happy with *any* supertelephoto, *including* the 300.

One last option I'll throw out that might actually be what she's looking for, though she probably doesn't realize it: the 7D plus the 400 f/5.6. Yes, it's optically slow, but it's got lightning-fast AF (or so I've been told) and it's easy to handhold (at the kinds of shutter speeds she'd need for the action). Damned good IQ, too. This is, of course, assuming that she only shoots in good light...but I'm guessing that polo is going to mostly be outdoors in good weather.

Cheers,

b&

smirkypants

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Re: 7D + 300/2.8 + 1.4x or 5D3 + 300/2.8 + 2.0x
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2012, 11:23:18 AM »
Your friend is in quite the pickle.

As they say: good, fast, cheap. Pick two.

She wants the 600mm equivalent reach, and she wants good image quality. *And* she wants something light.
Thank you for your extremely thoughtful answer, Trumpet. He problem isn't necessarily so much handling the equipment once it's on the monopod, I think, as much as handling the equipment off the monopod. She's about 5'5" and about 110 pounds. (1.65m & 50kg). Physically lugging this equipment around is actually quite a burden for her. She's so little she has to use a 100-400/40D on a monopod. I think handling a 300/2.8 II is about her limit. The 400/f5.6 needs light and on gray days she won't get good shots with a 7D.

Thanks again very much for your insights.

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Re: 7D + 300/2.8 + 1.4x or 5D3 + 300/2.8 + 2.0x
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2012, 11:35:52 AM »
i use my 300 almost always with the 1.4X attached. there is very little damage done to the IQ. with a 2.0X this would be much more visible. at least, if she's going to use the EF 300 f/2.8L IS (version 1).
version 2 of this lens has about the same loss in quality as the 1.4X with version 1.
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Re: 7D + 300/2.8 + 1.4x or 5D3 + 300/2.8 + 2.0x
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2012, 11:35:52 AM »

TrumpetPower!

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Re: 7D + 300/2.8 + 1.4x or 5D3 + 300/2.8 + 2.0x
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2012, 01:34:35 PM »
He problem isn't necessarily so much handling the equipment once it's on the monopod, I think, as much as handling the equipment off the monopod.

In that case...I'd suggest she go whole-hog for the 600 f/4 and either the 5DIII or the 1Dx, and then either get something with large wheels for the lugging or (ideally!) an assistant. Especially if the assistant is teenaged and into photography. If the assistant has to leave after the setup to go play in the polo match, that'll work, too.

That is, if it's "just" a matter of getting the gear to the gig and getting it set up, torn down, and back home again...that's a problem that's best solved not by compromising the photography or even with modern technology, but with (literally!) stone-aged technology: wheels and / or somebody else's muscles.

Look at it this way: for the price of a Red Flyer wagon and / or some slave labor, she can shoot with the best-there-is gear and the players can get (depending on her skill, of course) SI-quality photos. Not such a bad bargain, eh?

Cheers,

b&

smirkypants

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Re: 7D + 300/2.8 + 1.4x or 5D3 + 300/2.8 + 2.0x
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2012, 06:12:16 PM »
Not only does the 2x deliver a bigger IQ hit, it also delivers a bigger AF speed hit (1.4x slows down the AF motor by 50%, 2x slows it down by 75%).  But the AI Servo tracking will be better with the 5DIII than with the 7D.

It's a tough call.  I'd probably go with the 5DIII, 300/2.8 and 2x, personally.
I told her about this... she asked if the autofocus would be noticeably slower with the 5D + 300 + 2.0x. I told her I had no clue. Then she asked if it would be slower than her 100-400 with a 7D. I told her I'd imagine that the 300 even with a 2.0x would probably  be faster than a 100-400. But then again, I could be wrong.

Thoughts?

briansquibb

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Re: 7D + 300/2.8 + 1.4x or 5D3 + 300/2.8 + 2.0x
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2012, 06:32:43 PM »
I'd say her best bet is probably a 1DIV and a 400 f/2.8 II.

+1 Thats the way to do it :D

Todays picture with the 1D4 + 400 f/2.8 @ f/2.8, uncropped


smirkypants

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Re: 7D + 300/2.8 + 1.4x or 5D3 + 300/2.8 + 2.0x
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2012, 06:42:19 PM »
I'd say her best bet is probably a 1DIV and a 400 f/2.8 II.

+1 Thats the way to do it :D

Todays picture with the 1D4 + 400 f/2.8 @ f/2.8, uncropped
Really gorgeous shot Squibby, but her budget is $10,000 max and she's adamant about not wanting to lug around 30 pounds of gear. The 400/2.8 v1 is like $7500 (give or take), and you can get it used, but it's monstrous. The v2 is $11,500. She also told me that the 400mm might be too long for arena polo, which is played indoors in an area significantly smaller than an outdoor venue.

I think she's pretty much set on choosing between the options outlined at the beginning. I even tried to sell her on the Sigma 120-300/2.8 + 1.4ex but she turned her nose up at the idea of owning a Sigma.

briansquibb

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Re: 7D + 300/2.8 + 1.4x or 5D3 + 300/2.8 + 2.0x
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2012, 06:47:31 PM »
I'd say her best bet is probably a 1DIV and a 400 f/2.8 II.

+1 Thats the way to do it :D

Todays picture with the 1D4 + 400 f/2.8 @ f/2.8, uncropped
Really gorgeous shot Squibby, but her budget is $10,000 max and she's adamant about not wanting to lug around 30 pounds of gear. The 400/2.8 v1 is like $7500 (give or take), and you can get it used, but it's monstrous. The v2 is $11,500. She also told me that the 400mm might be too long for arena polo, which is played indoors in an area significantly smaller than an outdoor venue.

I think she's pretty much set on choosing between the options outlined at the beginning. I even tried to sell her on the Sigma 120-300/2.8 + 1.4ex but she turned her nose up at the idea of owning a Sigma.

I hand hold the 400 f/2.8 but she can use it on a gimbal which takes all the effort away. I have to do the 600 that way due to the length of the lens. I bought the 1D4 and the 400 used so I might just come inside the $10k - also save on gym costs too :D

Has she looked at the 400 f/5.6? That plus the 1.4 on a 1D4 would work
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 06:49:57 PM by briansquibb »

Harv

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Re: 7D + 300/2.8 + 1.4x or 5D3 + 300/2.8 + 2.0x
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2012, 07:52:03 PM »
I was really just going to watch this thread and say nothing but decided to jump in and offer an opinion.  I do so on the basis of having some personal experience with the gear in question.  The qualifier is that I owned the 5D MkII, not the MkIII, so I can't speak to hands on experience with the new 5D.

I presently shoot with a 1D Mk IV and a 7D.  I have also owned the 1D Mk IIn and MK III.

I have owned several copies of the 100-400 and gave them up because of less than optimum IQ at the long end.  It was also a light hog and deadly slow.  I presently shoot a number of 'L' lenses, including the 300 f/2.8L IS with both 1.4x III and 2x III extenders.  I also shoot with a 400/5.6L.

It was mentioned that she could consider a 1D MK IV and 400/5.6L with a 1.4x extender.  The AF speed is horrible and locking on the subject is chancy at best.  I don't advise using that combo.  For action, it would never work.  It barely works for static subjects.

I find very little slowing of AF with the 1.4x on the 300/2.8 and the IQ is still excellent.  On either of my bodies.  The 2x really slows the AF down a lot... even on the 1D Mk IV and I use it only for static subjects.  The IQ takes a hit as well, although not as bad with the MkIII extender as it did with the MkII.

Keep in mind that the 300/2.8 is not a light lens, but it performs like a champ.  Mine will go into the grave with me.  One of the best sports lenses ever made.

For what it's worth, the 7D AF is no slouch and the IQ is very good.  The 7D is not up to the standards of my 1D MK IV, but it is still a serious camera.  I can't compare it to the new 5D.  I'm comfortable shooting the 7D up to around ISO800.  Beyond that, I find it needs some work on noise reduction.

With a $10,000 budget, your friend can have the best of both worlds.  She can have a 7D, 5D III and a really good used 300/2.8L IS with a 1.4x extender.  A really nice, clean 300/2.8 can be bought used around $4,000.  Don't waste the money on a 2x extender for action sports.  It slows down AF too much for rapidly developing action.

Just my 2 cents worth.

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Re: 7D + 300/2.8 + 1.4x or 5D3 + 300/2.8 + 2.0x
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2012, 07:52:03 PM »

smirkypants

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Re: 7D + 300/2.8 + 1.4x or 5D3 + 300/2.8 + 2.0x
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2012, 07:58:22 PM »
With a $10,000 budget, your friend can have the best of both worlds.  She can have a 7D, 5D III and a really good used 300/2.8L IS with a 1.4x extender.  A really nice, clean 300/2.8 can be bought used around $4,000.  Don't waste the money on a 2x extender for action sports.  It slows down AF too much for rapidly developing action.
Thank you very much Harv. I was waiting for someone with lots of experience with the extenders to chime in. I really appreciate your taking the time to answer the question and will pass along the information to Katya (Yes, she's Russian. Yes, she's hot. Yes, my motivations in helping her aren't pure).

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Re: 7D + 300/2.8 + 1.4x or 5D3 + 300/2.8 + 2.0x
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2012, 09:06:01 PM »
Thank you very much Harv. I was waiting for someone with lots of experience with the extenders to chime in. I really appreciate your taking the time to answer the question and will pass along the information to Katya (Yes, she's Russian. Yes, she's hot. Yes, my motivations in helping her aren't pure).

And she doesn't lurk in CR.   ::)

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Re: 7D + 300/2.8 + 1.4x or 5D3 + 300/2.8 + 2.0x
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2012, 09:06:01 PM »