30p and shutter speed- 1/30 or 1/60 and why?

[Waterdonkey]

I'll be shooting video with my new 5D III and I keep reading that I should double the frames per second
30p/25p/24p to get the proper shutter speed:  30p->1/60 25p->1/50(PAL) and 24p->1/50 (closest speed).
 
SO my question is why and  that I might better understand, what is the logic behind this?

Shooting 1080/30p I find that shutter speeds over 1/60 look very Jittery and I know that that can be used as an effect or look. I guess I find 1/60 a little jittery as well, so I windup shooting at 1/30- am I making a mistake?

[bluegreenturtle]

In short, yes, never shoot at less than double the frame rate, because you're creating a look that no mechanical film camera could do by keeping the shutter open that long.   I came from the feature film world and when I started shooting with dslrs (I only do video - no stills) it seemed clear to me.  But I worked with a lot of people who were essentially stills photographers and trying out their nifty new features on their 5Dmk IIs and they weren't getting it (and ruining some footage as a result).  Photographers are used to thinking of the shutter speed as a way to let in more light or stop movement - obviously when you're working with motion pictures the shutter has a different concept as you never are stopping motion, and we can't drop our shutter slower to let in more light or it gives an unnatural and unpleasing look/effect.  Which is why videographers are so enamored with their fast primes. 

Instead of trying to ape it out I'll just give you a link:

http://tylerginter.com/post/11480534977/180-degree-shutter-learn-it-live-it-love-it

[Waterdonkey]

bluegreenturtle Thanks for the link.
So let me see if I understand... when shooting 1080 30p @ 1/30 I'm in effect smudging the picture?

You see I'm a TV camera man I shoot on the station's Sony XDCAM-HD 1080 60I (soon to be laid off, now getting work with 5Dm III), I'm coming at this from a video point of view. When we add shutter speed the video my TV Eye sees jitter and we will add this for effect or to be better able to slowmo in post.  I should just let the "Jitters" go and I'll get crisper video, yes?

Thanks again

[NormanBates]

the 180º rule is important, but flicker will absolutely ruin a shot, so you can apply it just approximately if it helps you avoid flicker
http://www.similaar.com/foto/tuten/630.html

and I'll add: why 30p?
http://www.macvideo.tv/camera-technology/interviews/?articleId=3213230

[Jedifarce]

Shooting 1080/30p I find that shutter speeds over 1/60 look very Jittery and I know that that can be used as an effect or look. I guess I find 1/60 a little jittery as well, so I windup shooting at 1/30- am I making a mistake?

Unless you're desperate for light you probably shouldn't be setting your shutter speed that low. However, Shane Hurlbut the cinematographer for Act of Valor,  at 30p he never uses 1/60 because it makes the footage appear like "video" so he suggests using either 1/40 or 1/50 to maintain a filmic look.

[Jedifarce]

and I'll add: why 30p?
http://www.macvideo.tv/camera-technology/interviews/?articleId=3213230

Act of Valor was shot at 30p which gives more frames to work with in post.

[bluegreenturtle]

Act of valor was shot at 30p because it was shot before the 24p firmware upgrade came.  They had no choice.  It was retimed to 24p in post. 

waterdonkey; this is an extended discussion, especially since you are coming from a TV aesthetic, which is simply different than the cinema aesthetic.  Your sony should be defaulting to the correct shutter angle and speed (I believe those cameras can set both) however, I think they have to be overridden from just doing the settings we are speaking of.  However the 60i(p) vs 24p and the jitter you see are different issues from that - the aesthetic is simply different than what you've been trained in and so used to seeing.  I've worked with TV guys too, there is just a different standard and look in broadcast TV. 

As for 30p, it's actually a reasonable choice for certain kinds of work; some corporate video demands 30p as sometimes the client doesn't care for the 24p look.  That's unusual though; my rule of thumb is that I shoot 24p for everything, except when some B roll, I might use 30p and put it on a 24p timeline giving a very slight slow motion which gives everything a dreamy look, especially useful in music videos. 

[Axilrod]

Just use 1/60 for 30fps and 1/50 for 24fps, it's never done me wrong.  The only time you want to shoot with a faster shutter speed is to create kind of a "panicked" look, like they use in war movies sometimes to make it look like everything is happening very quickly.  But other than that i'd stick to the standards. 

[Jedifarce]

Act of valor was shot at 30p because it was shot before the 24p firmware upgrade came.  They had no choice.  It was retimed to 24p in post. 

No, Shane Hurlbut does not believe in using 24p. Here are some of his quotes from a Red podcast -

- When asked about 24p,  "24p is dead to me...The cocktail is shooting at 30p and then twixtoring to 24p." Shane Hurlbut

- When asked what shutter speed he uses, "I use a 40th or a 50th of a shutter, you never go above that. Anytime you go above that you start looking like video." Shane Hurlbut

 - When asked if he used a 1/60th shutter speed when filming at 30p, "No, oh boy, no, 60th is a recipe for disaster. That's instantly taking your beautiful 5D that gives you filmic images and turning into a panasonic 3700." Shane Hurlbut

[bluegreenturtle]

I would suggest picking up your camera, going outside, and shooting some footage with a bunch of movement in it, and see which of these various settings, including Mr. Hurlbut's, looks the best to you. 

All I can say is I've worked on a feature with Shane and he does talk a lot!

[Jedifarce]

I would suggest picking up your camera, going outside, and shooting some footage with a bunch of movement in it, and see which of these various settings, including Mr. Hurlbut's, looks the best to you. 

All I can say is I've worked on a feature with Shane and he does talk a lot!

I usually film inside an ice skating rink, shooting at 24p is just not possible, that frame rate is just too slow and you lose a lot of data. As for the shutter speed, I prefer 1/60 as I am not going for a filmic look.

[bluegreenturtle]

Ah.  Suddenly it's all clear. 

[prestonpalmer]

Great post so far! Keep the discussion coming!

[Chad]

Yeah, i have a little Panasonic HMC-40 and the default shutter speed for 30p is 1/50. At first it didn't make sense to me, but after doing some tests, 50 does make things look a bit more like film compared to 1/60.

Only time i use a higher shutter speed is when shooting for slo-mo, only because i read that a high shutter speed had a lot to do with how Spielberg got that certain look during the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan! lol. Of course, you don't want that all the time though.