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Author Topic: First Canon EOS 60Da samples (Andromeda, Orion & Pleiades)!  (Read 12289 times)

nikkito

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Re: First Canon EOS 60Da samples (Andromeda, Orion & Pleiades)!
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2012, 12:55:57 AM »
Well, usually almost every sample picture they upload needs some small levels & contrast adjustments. I understand they want to upload the pictures straight from the camera, but come on....  ::)
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Re: First Canon EOS 60Da samples (Andromeda, Orion & Pleiades)!
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2012, 12:55:57 AM »

dr croubie

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Re: First Canon EOS 60Da samples (Andromeda, Orion & Pleiades)!
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2012, 12:56:05 AM »
I wonder if back-lighting or sensor cooling would help at all.
I'm wondering why this isn't the 7Da instead.
Surely, we don't need 19AF points and 8fps for astro.
And the weather-sealing on the 7D probably makes the sensor heat-up faster. Or would the metal-body help with passive-cooling?
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Re: First Canon EOS 60Da samples (Andromeda, Orion & Pleiades)!
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2012, 10:21:00 AM »
From the Japanese site it looks as if they just took single shots and processed in DPP, instead of a set of subs and stacking in DSS (Which is free).

I can see the improvement in the H-alpha but it's still not the best advert. Why they couldn't have fitted a square cut-off 400-700nm filter beats me, after all Baader and Astronomik do.

I wonder why DPP can't do stacking...

I wonder if back-lighting or sensor cooling would help at all.

Because it's a basic raw converter for "ordinary" photos. Something like DSS is dedicated to stacking raw astrophotos and would be no good for "ordinary" photography. Tools for the job, pick the right one.


Only by removing the back and adding a Peltier cooler and fan, but then you'd lose the LCD.

kdsand

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Re: First Canon EOS 60Da samples (Andromeda, Orion & Pleiades)!
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2012, 01:09:06 PM »
I can't wait!
This will be perfect for my next vacation!

Have spacesuite will travel.
  ;)



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Axilrod

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Re: First Canon EOS 60Da samples (Andromeda, Orion & Pleiades)!
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2012, 01:28:41 PM »
They look like black clipping was not done or done poorly, but then again I'm not familiar with how astronomy photographs are supposed to look... Might just be the nebulas, but to me it looks hazy.
Dude they're taking pictures of objects so far away it's hard to even comprehend the distance, I'd say they're pretty damn good for a $1400 camera.  But then again I'd like to know what kind of telescope they were shooting through...
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kdsand

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Re: First Canon EOS 60Da samples (Andromeda, Orion & Pleiades)!
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2012, 01:32:08 PM »
They look like black clipping was not done or done poorly, but then again I'm not familiar with how astronomy photographs are supposed to look... Might just be the nebulas, but to me it looks hazy.
Dude they're taking pictures of objects so far away it's hard to even comprehend the distance, I'd say they're pretty damn good for a $1400 camera.  But then again I'd like to know what kind of telescope they were shooting through...

The kit lens.
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BobSanderson

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Re: First Canon EOS 60Da samples (Andromeda, Orion & Pleiades)!
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2012, 02:13:58 PM »
The photos posted here are amazing and beautiful. Thanks.

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Re: First Canon EOS 60Da samples (Andromeda, Orion & Pleiades)!
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2012, 02:13:58 PM »

mws

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Re: First Canon EOS 60Da samples (Andromeda, Orion & Pleiades)!
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2012, 03:37:40 PM »
They look like black clipping was not done or done poorly, but then again I'm not familiar with how astronomy photographs are supposed to look... Might just be the nebulas, but to me it looks hazy.

Dude they're taking pictures of objects so far away it's hard to even comprehend the distance, I'd say they're pretty damn good for a $1400 camera.  But then again I'd like to know what kind of telescope they were shooting through...



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I honestly have no idea, but I wonder what you could do with that lense.

Lee Jay

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Re: First Canon EOS 60Da samples (Andromeda, Orion & Pleiades)!
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2012, 03:48:15 PM »
But then again I'd like to know what kind of telescope they were shooting through...

From the OP:

"They used a φ115mm ED Astronomical telescope..."

Maybe a Meade or Vixen?


dstppy

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Re: First Canon EOS 60Da samples (Andromeda, Orion & Pleiades)!
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2012, 03:51:16 PM »
I wonder if back-lighting or sensor cooling would help at all.
I'm wondering why this isn't the 7Da instead.
Surely, we don't need 19AF points and 8fps for astro.
And the weather-sealing on the 7D probably makes the sensor heat-up faster. Or would the metal-body help with passive-cooling?

Seriously . . . they coulda dinged people for $2k if that were the case . . .

My questions is, can we get some SMALLER images to compare?   :o
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whwang

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Re: First Canon EOS 60Da samples (Andromeda, Orion & Pleiades)!
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2012, 09:57:43 PM »
To begin with, back-lit CCDs are way more sensitive (no Bayer filter + higher QE => up to 5 times more sensitive for a given wavelength) but as important is that astronomical CCDs almost always are actively cooled to reduce the dark current. Dark current can easily be the most signicant source of noise for very faint sources that require long exposures. An additional problem is that the dark current fills up the electron well with time, reducing the dynamic range unless the photo-sites are periodically reset by making multiple shorter exposures, but the problem with multiple exposures is that each readout adds noise.

The advantage of the 60Da on the other hand is that you get all three colours simultaneosly, and at 18 Mpix, for a low cost. And you can easily use it with EOS lenses, something that can be a bit involved for astrophotography-dedicated CCDs.



Hi,

I happen to be an astronomical researcher and an astrophotographer who use Canon extensively.  Here are a few of my recent photos taken with a modified 5D2:
http://www3.asiaa.sinica.edu.tw/~whwang/gallery/picutres/M42_2010.html
http://www3.asiaa.sinica.edu.tw/~whwang/gallery/picutres/M101.htm
http://www3.asiaa.sinica.edu.tw/~whwang/gallery/picutres/rosette-2011.htm

I would like to add a few words to the topic on DSLR vs cooled astronomical monochrome CCDs.

As epsiloneri pointed out, a big advantage of astro mono CCDs is their high QE.  The fact they don't have Bayer filters allow them to adopt the LRGB color combination, in which they spend most of the time on L and only a little time on RGB. The L filter essentially uses the entire throughput range in the optical spectrum.  Coupled with the high QE of the sensors, this produces very high S/N and high resolution in a short amount of time.  This is proven to be an extremely efficient way of producing high quality color pictures, and DSLR just can't match this.  Even if DSLRs have similar QE as mono CCDs, it will still take a Bayer-style DSLR 2x (or even 3x) more exposure time to achieve the same quality. In my opinion, the biggest advantage of mono CCDs is their flexible filter usage, which allows for the very efficient LRGB and other possibilities.

Many people also think cooled CCDs are good because they are cooled and they have low noise.  Unfortunately, this is not correct.  First, recent DSLRs produced by Canon and Nikon all have LOWER noise comparing to CCDs from Kodak and Sony. Here I am talking about readout noise.  DSLRs' readout noise can be as low as 2-3 electrons rms per pixel (for example, 5D2 at ISO 1600 and 3200), but CCDs are still in the range of 7-10 (even > 10) electron per pixel. This is the same for dark current.  Recent Canon and Nikon CMOS chips have dark current that's MANY TIMES LOWER than that of Kodak/SONY CCD chips under the same temperature. The low temperature produced by the cooling system in those cooled CCDs help to reduce their dark current from being miserable to better than DSLRs, but not much better.  Plus, even when uncooled, recent DSLRs already have dark current that's comparable or even lower than sky photon rates in most astrophoto environments.  So dark current is no longer a limiting factor for the performance of DSLRs on astrophoto, as long as one subtract dark carefully, which is not difficult and doesn't take much time.

So, be happy with the Canon DSLRs you have.  They are great, maybe not up to the level of the best cooled CCDs, but not far behind too.

kdsand

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Re: First Canon EOS 60Da samples (Andromeda, Orion & Pleiades)!
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2012, 01:43:26 AM »
To begin with, back-lit CCDs are way more sensitive (no Bayer filter + higher QE => up to 5 times more sensitive for a given wavelength) but as important is that astronomical CCDs almost always are actively cooled to reduce the dark current. Dark current can easily be the most signicant source of noise for very faint sources that require long exposures. An additional problem is that the dark current fills up the electron well with time, reducing the dynamic range unless the photo-sites are periodically reset by making multiple shorter exposures, but the problem with multiple exposures is that each readout adds noise.

The advantage of the 60Da on the other hand is that you get all three colours simultaneosly, and at 18 Mpix, for a low cost. And you can easily use it with EOS lenses, something that can be a bit involved for astrophotography-dedicated CCDs.



Hi,

I happen to be an astronomical researcher and an astrophotographer who use Canon extensively.  Here are a few of my recent photos taken with a modified 5D2:
http://www3.asiaa.sinica.edu.tw/~whwang/gallery/picutres/M42_2010.html
http://www3.asiaa.sinica.edu.tw/~whwang/gallery/picutres/M101.htm
http://www3.asiaa.sinica.edu.tw/~whwang/gallery/picutres/rosette-2011.htm

I would like to add a few words to the topic on DSLR vs cooled astronomical monochrome CCDs.

As epsiloneri pointed out, a big advantage of astro mono CCDs is their high QE.  The fact they don't have Bayer filters allow them to adopt the LRGB color combination, in which they spend most of the time on L and only a little time on RGB. The L filter essentially uses the entire throughput range in the optical spectrum.  Coupled with the high QE of the sensors, this produces very high S/N and high resolution in a short amount of time.  This is proven to be an extremely efficient way of producing high quality color pictures, and DSLR just can't match this.  Even if DSLRs have similar QE as mono CCDs, it will still take a Bayer-style DSLR 2x (or even 3x) more exposure time to achieve the same quality. In my opinion, the biggest advantage of mono CCDs is their flexible filter usage, which allows for the very efficient LRGB and other possibilities.

Many people also think cooled CCDs are good because they are cooled and they have low noise.  Unfortunately, this is not correct.  First, recent DSLRs produced by Canon and Nikon all have LOWER noise comparing to CCDs from Kodak and Sony. Here I am talking about readout noise.  DSLRs' readout noise can be as low as 2-3 electrons rms per pixel (for example, 5D2 at ISO 1600 and 3200), but CCDs are still in the range of 7-10 (even > 10) electron per pixel. This is the same for dark current.  Recent Canon and Nikon CMOS chips have dark current that's MANY TIMES LOWER than that of Kodak/SONY CCD chips under the same temperature. The low temperature produced by the cooling system in those cooled CCDs help to reduce their dark current from being miserable to better than DSLRs, but not much better.  Plus, even when uncooled, recent DSLRs already have dark current that's comparable or even lower than sky photon rates in most astrophoto environments.  So dark current is no longer a limiting factor for the performance of DSLRs on astrophoto, as long as one subtract dark carefully, which is not difficult and doesn't take much time.

So, be happy with the Canon DSLRs you have.  They are great, maybe not up to the level of the best cooled CCDs, but not far behind too.


Wow.

That's a interesting post with some good points.  :)
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outsider

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Re: First Canon EOS 60Da samples (Andromeda, Orion & Pleiades)!
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2012, 10:10:46 AM »
It would have been nice if canon could have taken these same shots with a regular 60D to highlight the difference.

I wonder how much better the 60Da is over a stock 60D, or if this just marketing talk to market to the astronomer niche market?

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Re: First Canon EOS 60Da samples (Andromeda, Orion & Pleiades)!
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2012, 10:10:46 AM »

epsiloneri

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Re: First Canon EOS 60Da samples (Andromeda, Orion & Pleiades)!
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2012, 10:14:26 AM »
So dark current is no longer a limiting factor for the performance of DSLRs on astrophoto, as long as one subtract dark carefully, which is not difficult and doesn't take much time.
I'm very surprised to read this, but it sounds great! Do you have numbers for what the dark current actually is for modern DSLR sensors, e.g. in terms of electrons/hour?


epsiloneri

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Re: First Canon EOS 60Da samples (Andromeda, Orion & Pleiades)!
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2012, 10:16:28 AM »
It would have been nice if canon could have taken these same shots with a regular 60D to highlight the difference.
They did that for the Rosette nebula, in case you didn't see it. See OP.

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Re: First Canon EOS 60Da samples (Andromeda, Orion & Pleiades)!
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2012, 10:16:28 AM »