Canon 5D3 vs 7D for birding thoughts

[tomscott]

briansquibb is a bit sensitive when it comes to the 1D VI 

Kidding and jokes aside.

I would have to try both, but think the 5D MKIII would get my vote its just a great all rounder and is FF. Only prob is that you need some longer glass which is when things start getting pricey. The 7D is a really great camera its just that noisy sensor at lower ISO that I dont like. May not be significant, but coming from an older camera and getting worse ISO quality in the business end of the ISO range seems a bit silly to me.

[briansquibb]

briansquibb is a bit sensitive when it comes to the 1D VI 

Kidding and jokes aside.

I would have to try both, but think the 5D MKIII would get my vote its just a great all rounder and is FF. Only prob is that you need some longer glass which is when things start getting pricey. The 7D is a really great camera its just that noisy sensor at lower ISO that I dont like. May not be significant, but coming from an older camera and getting worse ISO quality in the business end of the ISO range seems a bit silly to me.

I only use my 7D when the weather is very good ie bright light with a touch of cloud.

I find that for the 7D then focal length * 2 seems to get sharp images. Hard work when using a 600 + 1.4 and the 7D is limited (for these types of shots) to about 800 - 1600 iso - especially for BIF

Getting close to smaller birds takes a long lens - for example to blue tit sized birds then you have to be very close. With a ff this usually means taking a big crop unless you are using a series 1 with the 600+2x

[dlleno]

The crop will give you more reach, but patience and knowledge about your target will get you closer to the bird without disturbing the bird.

just change the "but" to "and"  lol :-)

[dr croubie]

The crop will give you more reach, but patience and knowledge about your target will get you closer to the bird without disturbing the bird.

just change the "but" to "and"  lol :-)

I sped-read that comment at first and didn't take it in, I thought you wrote "just change the 'bird' to 'butt'".
(depends what kind of birds you like taking photos of, i suppose...)

[LetTheRightLensIn]

One thing is obvious is that the DOF of the 1.6 is greater than that of the ff at the same shutter speed

This is really only when you can get close enough to fill the frame with the bird with either FF or APS-C, which is often not the case, when you are totally distance limited this goes away (and since aps-c cams often have higher photosite density and you often want to take advantage of that, when you try to take advantage of it, the aps-c cam actually shows any lack of DOF even more).

This may impact the photo in that

- the 1.6 DOF may be too deep when wide open

As above, only when you are lucky enough to not be distance limited to the target and could frame as desired without cropping on the FF body.

- 7D has relatively poor high iso, limiting the quality IQ range (and therefore shutter speed)

Unless you are distance limited, in which case it actually does a trace BETTER than the 5D2 for noise (the 5D3 might be a bit better than the 5D2 for noise though, it remains to be seen).

- the ff DOF may be too shallow when wide open so you have to shut down - and lose shutter speed

again, there no DOF difference between 5D2, 7D, 1D4 when you are fully distance limited and willing to accept the 5D2 amount of detail it puts on the bird

[briansquibb]

again, there no DOF difference between 5D2, 7D, 1D4 when you are fully distance limited and willing to accept the 5D2 amount of detail it puts on the bird

My hide (shed) is just over 20 ft from the feeders for 3inch birds - using 1 1d4 I need shallow DOF/bg blur, the 7D gives poor bg blur at f/4 on the 600

I prefer not to crop if possible.

[nesarajah]

7D , this camera was made for birding- not that I'm any good at it .

[dlleno]

again, there no DOF difference between 5D2, 7D, 1D4 when you are fully distance limited and willing to accept the 5D2 amount of detail it puts on the bird

My hide (shed) is just over 20 ft from the feeders for 3inch birds - using 1 1d4 I need shallow DOF/bg blur, the 7D gives poor bg blur at f/4 on the 600

I prefer not to crop if possible.

so you are saying that when using the same lens at the same aperture, and you crop your 1d4 images down to 1.6 to obtain a 7D FOV, that the cropped 1d4 DOF is different than 7d?.  I'm not seeing why DOF would be different, when cropping for identical FOV from the same lens,  regardless of whether the crop was performed by the camera or in post.

[briansquibb]

again, there no DOF difference between 5D2, 7D, 1D4 when you are fully distance limited and willing to accept the 5D2 amount of detail it puts on the bird

My hide (shed) is just over 20 ft from the feeders for 3inch birds - using 1 1d4 I need shallow DOF/bg blur, the 7D gives poor bg blur at f/4 on the 600

I prefer not to crop if possible.

so you are saying that when using the same lens at the same aperture, and you crop your 1d4 images down to 1.6 to obtain a 7D FOV, that the cropped 1d4 DOF is different than 7d?.  I'm not seeing why DOF would be different, when cropping for identical FOV from the same lens,  regardless of whether the crop was performed by the camera or in post.

What I am saying is that a full frame 1D4 image will have a shallower DOF than a full frame 7D image.

[neuroanatomist]

again, there no DOF difference between 5D2, 7D, 1D4 when you are fully distance limited and willing to accept the 5D2 amount of detail it puts on the bird

My hide (shed) is just over 20 ft from the feeders for 3inch birds - using 1 1d4 I need shallow DOF/bg blur, the 7D gives poor bg blur at f/4 on the 600

I prefer not to crop if possible.

so you are saying that when using the same lens at the same aperture, and you crop your 1d4 images down to 1.6 to obtain a 7D FOV, that the cropped 1d4 DOF is different than 7d?.  I'm not seeing why DOF would be different, when cropping for identical FOV from the same lens,  regardless of whether the crop was performed by the camera or in post.

What I am saying is that a full frame 1D4 image will have a shallower DOF than a full frame 7D image.

True...but the question is, do you need to crop?  600mm on APS-H at 20' frames an area of ~11" x 7.25".  With a 3" high bird, you might be tempted to crop your resulting image in post to ~9" x 6", in which case you would have the same DoF as if you had taken the shot with an APS-C camera.

[briansquibb]

again, there no DOF difference between 5D2, 7D, 1D4 when you are fully distance limited and willing to accept the 5D2 amount of detail it puts on the bird

My hide (shed) is just over 20 ft from the feeders for 3inch birds - using 1 1d4 I need shallow DOF/bg blur, the 7D gives poor bg blur at f/4 on the 600

I prefer not to crop if possible.

so you are saying that when using the same lens at the same aperture, and you crop your 1d4 images down to 1.6 to obtain a 7D FOV, that the cropped 1d4 DOF is different than 7d?.  I'm not seeing why DOF would be different, when cropping for identical FOV from the same lens,  regardless of whether the crop was performed by the camera or in post.

What I am saying is that a full frame 1D4 image will have a shallower DOF than a full frame 7D image.

True...but the question is, do you need to crop?  600mm on APS-H at 20' frames an area of ~11" x 7.25".  With a 3" high bird, you might be tempted to crop your resulting image in post to ~9" x 6", in which case you would have the same DoF as if you had taken the shot with an APS-C camera.

I usually have the 1.4 on ...

[dlleno]

again, there no DOF difference between 5D2, 7D, 1D4 when you are fully distance limited and willing to accept the 5D2 amount of detail it puts on the bird

My hide (shed) is just over 20 ft from the feeders for 3inch birds - using 1 1d4 I need shallow DOF/bg blur, the 7D gives poor bg blur at f/4 on the 600

I prefer not to crop if possible.

so you are saying that when using the same lens at the same aperture, and you crop your 1d4 images down to 1.6 to obtain a 7D FOV, that the cropped 1d4 DOF is different than 7d?.  I'm not seeing why DOF would be different, when cropping for identical FOV from the same lens,  regardless of whether the crop was performed by the camera or in post.

What I am saying is that a full frame 1D4 image will have a shallower DOF than a full frame 7D image.

True...but the question is, do you need to crop?  600mm on APS-H at 20' frames an area of ~11" x 7.25".  With a 3" high bird, you might be tempted to crop your resulting image in post to ~9" x 6", in which case you would have the same DoF as if you had taken the shot with an APS-C camera.

I usually have the 1.4 on ...

which means you are not in a distance-limited situation and you are able to obtain the FOV you want with optics and a  larger sensor, which will produce the shallow DOF you want.    this is nothing new.  put those same optics on a 5D3 and you will have to crop the FF image to 1.3x to get the same FOV, and the resulting DOF will be identical.  but here is the difference -- the 5D3 won't put the same number of pixels on the bird because it's pixel density not as high as the 1D4. 

[briansquibb]

again, there no DOF difference between 5D2, 7D, 1D4 when you are fully distance limited and willing to accept the 5D2 amount of detail it puts on the bird

My hide (shed) is just over 20 ft from the feeders for 3inch birds - using 1 1d4 I need shallow DOF/bg blur, the 7D gives poor bg blur at f/4 on the 600

I prefer not to crop if possible.

so you are saying that when using the same lens at the same aperture, and you crop your 1d4 images down to 1.6 to obtain a 7D FOV, that the cropped 1d4 DOF is different than 7d?.  I'm not seeing why DOF would be different, when cropping for identical FOV from the same lens,  regardless of whether the crop was performed by the camera or in post.

What I am saying is that a full frame 1D4 image will have a shallower DOF than a full frame 7D image.

True...but the question is, do you need to crop?  600mm on APS-H at 20' frames an area of ~11" x 7.25".  With a 3" high bird, you might be tempted to crop your resulting image in post to ~9" x 6", in which case you would have the same DoF as if you had taken the shot with an APS-C camera.

I usually have the 1.4 on ...

which means you are not in a distance-limited situation and you are able to obtain the FOV you want with optics and a  larger sensor, which will produce the shallow DOF you want.    this is nothing new.  put those same optics on a 5D3 and you will have to crop the FF image to 1.3x to get the same FOV, and the resulting DOF will be identical.  but here is the difference -- the 5D3 won't put the same number of pixels on the bird because it's pixel density not as high as the 1D4.

Distance limited because of minimum focal length

[briansquibb]

The key here is to get the best IQ from the picture

There are 3 basic options, in ascending IQ quality order

- 1.6 crop

- 1.3 crop

- full frame

Also this list is in descending DOF order when the image can fill the frame without cropping. Reduced DOF helps increase the bg blur.

If it is possible to get the image uncropped then that is the way to go. It also maximises the amount of pixels in the image.

[dlleno]

nice summary.  question is,  with 1.3 out of the picture, is Canon forcing  the wildlifers into carrying more glass or will they produce a high performance 1.6x body?