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Author Topic: "1Dsq" & 3D [CR1]  (Read 24666 times)

J-Man

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Re: “1Dsq” & 3D [CR1]
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2011, 09:44:16 PM »
I don't think it would be too hard for a company with the resources that Canon has, to release a new format to expand their market share.
Could  it be possible that the lens manufacturing problems Canon is currently having might be due to adapting their production lines to a new mount design and therefor delaying the announced lenses....
Granted it could also be Canons loose AF tolerances biting them in the butt.

The 3D specs sound good, I might part with my 1DIII
    * 3D full frame – 18MP
I'd be happy with anything between 15 & 21MP.
    * No built in grip, 1 series ‘style’ build
Full weather sealing is a must have now days.
    * 7D/1D focus
If not: = FAIL
    * Active focus screen (as per 7D)
Must be able to manual focus easily!
    * ISO to 102400
As long as 50-1600 are noise free, and no $%^&%% banding!
    * Video as with 7D
With improved AF for live view & video I hope.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 09:48:43 PM by J-Man »

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Re: “1Dsq” & 3D [CR1]
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2011, 09:44:16 PM »

macfly

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Re: “1Dsq” & 3D [CR1]
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2011, 10:23:43 PM »
I'd be very surprised because there are so few real uses for square images these days. Nobody buys cd's or albums anymore, so where's the reason to go square? Maybe mp bragging rights, but other than that everyone will be cropping it all the time, so a 42mp will reall be more like a 35mp.  However the idea of a camera that is always held the correct way up is reather appealing

6x7 is actually about the most useful of all the aspect ratios I've used over the years in terms of using the most of the film regadless of whether its single page, double page or billboard.

Ah well, I hope they don't take too long with it, whatever it is, because Nikon is starting to look awefully good these days!

Gcon

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Re: “1Dsq” & 3D [CR1]
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2011, 11:13:01 PM »
Oooh the 3D is exactly what I want. Well I'd like to stay at 21MP (I'm a 5DmkII user) but for the stuff I shoot and sizes I print then 3MP difference (14% drop) probably wouldn't be an issue, but if they can increase low-light performance, add 1d-level pro weather sealing, up the shutter speed and improve the AF then I am so there!!!

Lenses - new improved 50mm f/1.2L II would be good to go with it  - a low-light specialist body needs a better low-light prime to go with it.. hint hint... ;)

Osiris30

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Re: “1Dsq” & 3D [CR1]
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2011, 12:53:22 AM »
<strong>1Ds Mark Squared</strong>

Received some information that we talked about <a href=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/2010/05/the-cmos-sensor-squared-cr2/\">many moons ago</a>. The shift of the top end 1D camera to  a square sensor.</p>
<p>The information goes on to say Canon has the technology to do 8-10fps with a 35-40mp image file.</p>
<p><strong>3D Returns</strong>

We all love to dream about it, and the 3D is making its annual return to the rumor mill.</p>
<p><strong>From <a href=\"http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_3d.html\">NL</a></strong></p>
<ul>
<li>3D full frame – 18MP</li>
<li>No built in grip, 1 series ‘style’ build</li>
<li>7D/1D focus</li>
<li>Active focus screen (as per 7D)</li>
<li>ISO to 102400</li>
<li>Video as with 7D</li>
</ul>
<p><strong> Another vote for a smaller pro camera</strong>

Along with the above square sensor information, I was told again to expect a new top end camera body. Again, the “smaller body” was mentioned.<strong></strong></p>
<p><strong><span style=\"color: #ff0000;\">c</span>r</strong>


Ok, so let's see... Canon is going to bring out all new lenses for this square format sensor, and we haven't seen a single square format lens patent... right that does that one in.

As for this 3D.. Anyone who thinks Canon is going to drop their sensel density needs to give their heads a shake.  ISO performance and sensel size have *very* little to do with each other, the newest Sony APS-C proves this point.  The current Nikon high-iso monster which shall be unnamed is that way due to other design reasons, not the sensel size.

I *really* wish people would get over this silly internet myth that smaller pixels are bad (and it is a myth until a point we aren't close to).  You actually improve DR with more smaller sensels due to highlights not being blown to kingdom come.

While I appreciate the rumors didn't originate with CR, I do wish people would apply a little critical thinking to some of them.  If you guys *want* something from a sensor how about faster microlenses, something f0.6 or so to allow f1.2 lenses to actually be used to their full advantage in terms of light gathering.  The only reason I don't own an f1.2 lens is I can't use it at close to f1.2 from a light gathering perspective (and I really don't need DOF that thin.. not that I couldn't handle it, but I don't need it for artistic purposes).

Give me a 40MP, 4:1 binned (optionally) FF sensor with fast microlenses and I will buy it.  Immediately.  Give me nice low readout noise and nicely designed wells of a good depth.  Move as much of the support circuitry to the back of the sensor to improve sensel density.. these are the things people would be asking for if they stopped to think about how light and sensors *actually* work... oh and if someone (anyone, I'd switch brands for this in a heartbeat), can come up with a way to have the bayer filter be movable so I can put the camera in true monochrome mode, they would be my god (and yes I know it won't happen, but if we're dreaming.. )

dilbert

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Re: “1Dsq” & 3D [CR1]
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2011, 12:59:07 AM »
...
Ok, so let's see... Canon is going to bring out all new lenses for this square format sensor, and we haven't seen a single square format lens patent... right that does that one in.
...

Canon doesn't need to bring out all new lenses. The *only* lens that I'm aware of that isn't appropriate for the square sensor is the 24-105L/f4 because of the rectangular bit on the back. If they did bring out a square sensor, I would not at all be surprised if Canon also announced a program to "fix" those lenses.

Osiris30

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Re: “1Dsq” & 3D [CR1]
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2011, 01:37:34 AM »
...
Ok, so let's see... Canon is going to bring out all new lenses for this square format sensor, and we haven't seen a single square format lens patent... right that does that one in.
...

Canon doesn't need to bring out all new lenses. The *only* lens that I'm aware of that isn't appropriate for the square sensor is the 24-105L/f4 because of the rectangular bit on the back. If they did bring out a square sensor, I would not at all be surprised if Canon also announced a program to "fix" those lenses.

There are many more than that.. I just can't be bothered to go and figure out which they are right now.  Not to mention I wouldn't want to see the corners on a 36mmx36mm sensor with the lens that don't have the baffle on the back of them. 

Oh I just thought of a lens with a baffle on the back that's not square (enough).. the 70-200 f2.8 Mk II.. Canon's best 'pro' zoom lens ever (sorry but I usually don't study the rear-end of most lenses) :)

macfly

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Re: “1Dsq” & 3D [CR1]
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2011, 02:05:47 AM »
I think the patents are a very pertinent point, and I really can't see Canon building a whole new system for the ever shrinking stills market. I bet that their focus will be on video all the way now.

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Re: “1Dsq” & 3D [CR1]
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2011, 02:05:47 AM »

dilbert

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Re: “1Dsq” & 3D [CR1]
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2011, 03:29:25 AM »
I think the patents are a very pertinent point, and I really can't see Canon building a whole new system for the ever shrinking stills market. I bet that their focus will be on video all the way now.

Huh?

They don't need to build a whole new lens system.

Bob Howland

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Re: “1Dsq” & 3D [CR1]
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2011, 07:47:14 AM »
Ok, so let's see... Canon is going to bring out all new lenses for this square format sensor, and we haven't seen a single square format lens patent... right that does that one in.

As for this 3D.. Anyone who thinks Canon is going to drop their sensel density needs to give their heads a shake.  ISO performance and sensel size have *very* little to do with each other, the newest Sony APS-C proves this point.The current Nikon high-iso monster which shall be unnamed is that way due to other design reasons, not the sensel size.

I *really* wish people would get over this silly internet myth that smaller pixels are bad (and it is a myth until a point we aren't close to).  You actually improve DR with more smaller sensels due to highlights not being blown to kingdom come.

While I appreciate the rumors didn't originate with CR, I do wish people would apply a little critical thinking to some of them.  If you guys *want* something from a sensor how about faster microlenses, something f0.6 or so to allow f1.2 lenses to actually be used to their full advantage in terms of light gathering.  The only reason I don't own an f1.2 lens is I can't use it at close to f1.2 from a light gathering perspective (and I really don't need DOF that thin.. not that I couldn't handle it, but I don't need it for artistic purposes).

Give me a 40MP, 4:1 binned (optionally) FF sensor with fast microlenses and I will buy it.  Immediately.  Give me nice low readout noise and nicely designed wells of a good depth.  Move as much of the support circuitry to the back of the sensor to improve sensel density.. these are the things people would be asking for if they stopped to think about how light and sensors *actually* work... oh and if someone (anyone, I'd switch brands for this in a heartbeat), can come up with a way to have the bayer filter be movable so I can put the camera in true monochrome mode, they would be my god (and yes I know it won't happen, but if we're dreaming.. )

1. Which new Sony sensor are you talking about, 16MP or 24MP?

2. What are the "other design reasons" for the relatively low large pixel size in the "Nikon high-iso monster"?

3. As for the "silly Internet myth" about pixel size, go to the Canon USA website and look at their bragging about the sensor for the new M40/M41/M400 camcorders. Coming from Canon, it's downright weird. If pixel size doesn't matter, is binning desirable only to reduce file size? Also, you might want to talk with the people who designed the sensor for the Red Epic movie camera. They're claiming 13.5 stops of DR with relatively large pixels.

4. I didn't know that microlenses even had f-stops. Could you elaborate?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 07:56:06 AM by Bob Howland »

neuroanatomist

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Re: “1Dsq” & 3D [CR1]
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2011, 08:58:26 AM »
Ok, so let's see... Canon is going to bring out all new lenses for this square format sensor, and we haven't seen a single square format lens patent... right that does that one in.

I'm with dilbert on this one...lenses are round, and they project an image circle.  How you sample the light within that circle - rectangular or square - is independent of the lens.  The only exception to that is where there is a rectangular baffle at the rear of the lens, which I've seen on the 24-105mm and nowhere else (some telephoto lenses have a square baffle with slightly rounded corners, but not something that would impinge on the shape of the image circle).
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NotABunny

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Re: “1Dsq” & 3D [CR1]
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2011, 09:19:18 AM »
What are the "other design reasons" for the relatively low large pixel size in the "Nikon high-iso monster"?

See http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,255.msg3911.html#msg3911 for the real factor responsible for low image noise: sensor size.


If pixel size doesn't matter, is binning desirable only to reduce file size?

Sensor / image resolution has nothing to do with noise per image, but it affects the noise per pixel.

KyleSTL

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Re: “1Dsq” & 3D [CR1]
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2011, 10:08:52 AM »
Not to mention I wouldn't want to see the corners on a 36mmx36mm sensor with the lens that don't have the baffle on the back of them.

The image circle for a an EF lens would make a 30.6mm square sensor.  Sensor size would be constrained by the hypotenuse (43.266mm), not the width of a 3:2 ratio frame.  For the record, a 36x24mm sensor is 864 mm2, a 30.6mm square sensor is 936 mm2.  That is an 8% increase of surface area.  That, coupled with the fact that a square sensor would have less sensor area outside of the 'sweet spot' of the lens would likely result in slightly sharper images.
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Orangutan

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Re: “1Dsq” & 3D [CR1]
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2011, 10:20:27 AM »
>The image circle for a an EF lens would make a 30.6mm square sensor. 

If we're talking about a camera at $8-10K+, why not make a sensor that covers the entire image circle; then let the photographer decide how to crop it.  Will that create wasted silicon?  Yup, but this is not a consumer camera, and it would eliminate the need for a "vertical" grip.

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Re: “1Dsq” & 3D [CR1]
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2011, 10:20:27 AM »

macfly

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Re: “1Dsq” & 3D [CR1]
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2011, 10:53:11 AM »
"They don't need to build a whole new lens system."

Dilbert, make a circle that touches the edges of a rectangle with an aspect ratio of 1.5 x 1 then make a circle around the squares made up of the 1.5 dimension, and you'll see that the area of coverage is significantly expanded.

As other her noted the square will be smaller than the 1.5 dimension if they went that way but kept the current lenses. I'd say this has a snowball's chance in hell of being true, but hey, Canon have made some really bad decisions lately, like messing up the once wonderful G series, so maybe.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 10:59:37 AM by macfly »

KyleSTL

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Re: “1Dsq” & 3D [CR1]
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2011, 11:46:43 AM »
>The image circle for a an EF lens would make a 30.6mm square sensor. 

If we're talking about a camera at $8-10K+, why not make a sensor that covers the entire image circle; then let the photographer decide how to crop it.  Will that create wasted silicon?  Yup, but this is not a consumer camera, and it would eliminate the need for a "vertical" grip.
So you would prefer vignetting in all images, with post-processing on every image to eliminate the black areas by cropping?
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Re: “1Dsq” & 3D [CR1]
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2011, 11:46:43 AM »