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Author Topic: Will the D1-x really be superior to the new 5DIII?  (Read 15748 times)

JR

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Re: Will the D1-x really be superior to the new 5DIII?
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2012, 08:35:14 PM »
There is no dounbt in my mine the 1DX will be better.  Not sure if many of you saw some of the 1DX RAW file posted in another thread today but they look very good.  Most of them were shot with a 24mm 1.4L II and let me tell you shooting ISO 12800 with a 24mm is pure insanity.  However looking at these file from the 1DX, I was really impressed.

Even if it give us only 1/2 to 1 stop better ISO performance in theory, in practice these ISO will look better I beleive due to its metering system and I suspect higher DR at higher ISO compared to the mkIII...

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Re: Will the D1-x really be superior to the new 5DIII?
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2012, 08:35:14 PM »

cps_user

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Re: Will the D1-x really be superior to the new 5DIII?
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2012, 09:42:13 AM »
I think you will be dissapointed if you really think the 1dx is going to be better IQ-wise.

Don't really think noise at 12800 is that much better than 5d3 to be honest. And a first quick test with some pulling of that iso 250 file doesn't prove very promising in terms of dynamic range.

This test done by a Dutch website clearly demonstrates that, in certain circumstances, the superior DR on the 800 can actually be used and seen: http://www.digifotopro.nl/content/canon-5d-mark-iii-vs-nikon-d800-dynamisch-bereik

In short, much more room for correction without killing the image.

In particular in cases where you want to push deep shadows and pull highlights, and do heavy dodge and burn in lightroom for example, I'm positive the D800/D4 chips will give you a clear benefit over the 5d3/1dx.

In a lot of situations you won't see sensor advantages however.




PhilDrinkwater

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Re: Will the D1-x really be superior to the new 5DIII?
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2012, 10:03:40 AM »
I think you will be dissapointed if you really think the 1dx is going to be better IQ-wise.

Don't really think noise at 12800 is that much better than 5d3 to be honest. And a first quick test with some pulling of that iso 250 file doesn't prove very promising in terms of dynamic range.

This test done by a Dutch website clearly demonstrates that, in certain circumstances, the superior DR on the 800 can actually be used and seen: http://www.digifotopro.nl/content/canon-5d-mark-iii-vs-nikon-d800-dynamisch-bereik

In short, much more room for correction without killing the image.

In particular in cases where you want to push deep shadows and pull highlights, and do heavy dodge and burn in lightroom for example, I'm positive the D800/D4 chips will give you a clear benefit over the 5d3/1dx.

In a lot of situations you won't see sensor advantages however.

Indeed. For me I push the shadows but not more than a few stops.

The bigger difference for me is the overall image, which comes down to the lens. For that reason alone id stick with canon. That said usable 12800 will be helpful for more dof and 3200 with shadows that you can push - they will be both be helpful.

briansquibb

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Re: Will the D1-x really be superior to the new 5DIII?
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2012, 11:37:37 AM »

Don't really think noise at 12800 is that much better than 5d3 to be honest. And a first quick test with some pulling of that iso 250 file doesn't prove very promising in terms of dynamic range.


As the 1D4 is decent at 12800 I would be surprised if the 1DX didn't manage an extra stop

JR

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Re: Will the D1-x really be superior to the new 5DIII?
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2012, 12:54:14 PM »

Don't really think noise at 12800 is that much better than 5d3 to be honest. And a first quick test with some pulling of that iso 250 file doesn't prove very promising in terms of dynamic range.


As the 1D4 is decent at 12800 I would be surprised if the 1DX didn't manage an extra stop

Me too!  At least 1 to 1.5 stops over the 1DIV i think.
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V8Beast

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Re: Will the D1-x really be superior to the new 5DIII?
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2012, 03:09:50 PM »

This test done by a Dutch website clearly demonstrates that, in certain circumstances, the superior DR on the 800 can actually be used and seen: http://www.digifotopro.nl/content/canon-5d-mark-iii-vs-nikon-d800-dynamisch-bereik

In short, much more room for correction without killing the image.

In particular in cases where you want to push deep shadows and pull highlights, and do heavy dodge and burn in lightroom for example, I'm positive the D800/D4 chips will give you a clear benefit over the 5d3/1dx.

In a lot of situations you won't see sensor advantages however.

Interesting test. I suppose the conclusion is that if you make a habit of missing an exposure by 3-4 stops, the D800 is a better machine than the 5DIII. I have no problem conceding Nikon's superiority in that regard, but in all my years of shooting, I have never once missed an exposure by 3-4 stops. I'd venture to say it would be difficult to miss an exposure by 4 stops by a soccer mom using her iPhone. Heck, I feel like the world's worst photographer if I miss an exposure by 1 stop :)

Like you said, in many situations this sensor advantage won't be evident. I think the Nikon's flat looking files would bug me a heck of a lot more than the instances where I need to pull 4 stops of shadow recovery, which is never.

cps_user

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Re: Will the D1-x really be superior to the new 5DIII?
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2012, 04:03:58 PM »
True.

But there are cases where you surely couldd benefit from wider dr and the option to get detail in both the deepest shadow and brightest highlights. I'm sure we all have a couple of files in our archives where we had to give up on either one of them, or where we wouldve liked more leeway to mould the file to our wishes.

In this respect, I think Nikon wins this round. Their processor is both capable of great high iso and has better dr, so sensor-wise the d4 beats the 1dx, at least this is how it well might look like.

Canon promised us the best sensor tech available when they announced 1dx and for sure, it's going to be the best ff canon dslr yet, but it's simply not the best available sensor tech on the dslr market.

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Re: Will the D1-x really be superior to the new 5DIII?
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2012, 04:03:58 PM »

PhilDrinkwater

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Re: Will the D1-x really be superior to the new 5DIII?
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2012, 04:57:47 PM »

This test done by a Dutch website clearly demonstrates that, in certain circumstances, the superior DR on the 800 can actually be used and seen: http://www.digifotopro.nl/content/canon-5d-mark-iii-vs-nikon-d800-dynamisch-bereik

In short, much more room for correction without killing the image.

In particular in cases where you want to push deep shadows and pull highlights, and do heavy dodge and burn in lightroom for example, I'm positive the D800/D4 chips will give you a clear benefit over the 5d3/1dx.

In a lot of situations you won't see sensor advantages however.

Interesting test. I suppose the conclusion is that if you make a habit of missing an exposure by 3-4 stops, the D800 is a better machine than the 5DIII. I have no problem conceding Nikon's superiority in that regard, but in all my years of shooting, I have never once missed an exposure by 3-4 stops. I'd venture to say it would be difficult to miss an exposure by 4 stops by a soccer mom using her iPhone. Heck, I feel like the world's worst photographer if I miss an exposure by 1 stop :)

Like you said, in many situations this sensor advantage won't be evident. I think the Nikon's flat looking files would bug me a heck of a lot more than the instances where I need to pull 4 stops of shadow recovery, which is never.

Realistically I don't think anyone is taking about rescuing 4 stop unexposed files but rather HDR situations using a single shot.

There are situations when better quality deep shadows would help me. For example, when I'm shooting a bride getting into or out of the car I don't particularly like to use flash as it changes the shot significantly and inverse square law of light means only the closer person will be lit. Having a single exposure for this situation would be fantastically useful.

It's not someone which will affect all photographers but it will affect some. 

V8Beast

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Re: Will the D1-x really be superior to the new 5DIII?
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2012, 05:53:52 PM »
But there are cases where you surely couldd benefit from wider dr and the option to get detail in both the deepest shadow and brightest highlights. I'm sure we all have a couple of files in our archives where we had to give up on either one of them, or where we wouldve liked more leeway to mould the file to our wishes.

In this respect, I think Nikon wins this round.

Agreed on all accounts. If maximum DR is the most important factor for a photographer, then Nikon is the clear winner. Fortunately, DR is just one of many elements of performance that go into what and how I shoot, and it's not so important that I feel inclined to abandon the Canon system.

Realistically I don't think anyone is taking about rescuing 4 stop unexposed files but rather HDR situations using a single shot.

There are situations when better quality deep shadows would help me. For example, when I'm shooting a bride getting into or out of the car I don't particularly like to use flash as it changes the shot significantly and inverse square law of light means only the closer person will be lit. Having a single exposure for this situation would be fantastically useful.

Anyone can relate to the benefits of greater DR in practical, real-world situations as you describe. While the test conducted in that link is interesting from a strictly academic standpoint of gauging sensor performance, I have a difficult time relating to the method used to illustrate their point. Pulling four stops of shadow recovery is equivalent to an 16-fold increase in light, and if you haphazardly pulled that much shadow recovery in 99 percent of images, you'd end up with the ugliest, flattest POS you'd ever laid eyes on :) It's one thing to recover some shadow detail. It's another thing entirely to turn your shadows into midtones, which is essentially what that Dutch experiment sought to accomplish.

Now, I think a much more effective test would be if someone as qualified as yourself busted out one of these shots of a bride getting out of car, applied the necessary shadow recovery in post, then shared the before and after images the illustrate the benefits of the Nikon's DR advantage :) That's something everyone can relate to.

I just find the idea of intentionally underexposing an image by four stops, then trying to save it in post just for the sake of experimentation, a bit silly since it isn't a situation you'd ever encounter in real life. Unfortunately, a lot of people find bizarre experiments like that quite compelling.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 05:56:09 PM by V8Beast »

briansquibb

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Re: Will the D1-x really be superior to the new 5DIII?
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2012, 05:55:02 PM »

Canon promised us the best sensor tech available when they announced 1dx and for sure, it's going to be the best ff canon dslr yet, but it's simply not the best available sensor tech on the dslr market.

I dont think anyone is in a position to say whether it is or it isn't yet as it hasn't been tested yet

RLPhoto

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Re: Will the D1-x really be superior to the new 5DIII?
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2012, 06:21:27 PM »
Short answer - YES (Long Answer Below).
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Long Answer - YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.

PhilDrinkwater

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Re: Will the D1-x really be superior to the new 5DIII?
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2012, 06:24:41 PM »

Canon promised us the best sensor tech available when they announced 1dx and for sure, it's going to be the best ff canon dslr yet, but it's simply not the best available sensor tech on the dslr market.

I dont think anyone is in a position to say whether it is or it isn't yet as it hasn't been tested yet
No... But I think the signs are all these. My tests so far say its equal to the others in high ISO midtones and shadows, but low iso dr? It doesnt seem to be the case.

I'm not sure canon promised that though. They said the 1dx would be the best canon offered. They've been very clear on that...
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 06:49:34 PM by PhilDrinkwater »

briansquibb

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Re: Will the D1-x really be superior to the new 5DIII?
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2012, 06:29:53 PM »

Canon promised us the best sensor tech available when they announced 1dx and for sure, it's going to be the best ff canon dslr yet, but it's simply not the best available sensor tech on the dslr market.

I dont think anyone is in a position to say whether it is or it isn't yet as it hasn't been tested yet
No... But I think the signs are all these. My tests so far say its equal to the others in high ISO midtones and shadows, but low iso dr? It doesnt seem to be the case.

I'm not sure canon promised that though. Try said the 1dx would be the best canon offered. They've been very clear on that...

You have a production 1DX then? or even a pre-production model? What did you analyse to come to that conclusion? And you are comparing it with? And do you have that camera?

What tests are you doing? Against what files?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 06:32:15 PM by briansquibb »

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Re: Will the D1-x really be superior to the new 5DIII?
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2012, 06:29:53 PM »

PhilDrinkwater

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Re: Will the D1-x really be superior to the new 5DIII?
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2012, 06:39:54 PM »

Canon promised us the best sensor tech available when they announced 1dx and for sure, it's going to be the best ff canon dslr yet, but it's simply not the best available sensor tech on the dslr market.

I dont think anyone is in a position to say whether it is or it isn't yet as it hasn't been tested yet
No... But I think the signs are all these. My tests so far say its equal to the others in high ISO midtones and shadows, but low iso dr? It doesnt seem to be the case.

I'm not sure canon promised that though. Try said the 1dx would be the best canon offered. They've been very clear on that...

You have a production 1DX then? or even a pre-production model? What did you analyse to come to that conclusion? And you are comparing it with? And do you have that camera?

What tests are you doing? Against what files?
Comparing d4/d800 samples with 1dx samples posted the other day.

It's far from conclusive which is why I said "it doesn't *seem*", but I'd bet £50 on it right now. Certainly compared with d800 low ISO DR and probably d4 low ISO DR too.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 06:50:39 PM by PhilDrinkwater »

PhilDrinkwater

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Re: Will the D1-x really be superior to the new 5DIII?
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2012, 06:48:50 PM »
So I thought I'd share some more in depth thoughts about how low noise in the shadows is actually useful in a real life situation :)

Firstly, it's fair to say with my wedding work that I use flash as little as possible. That doesn't mean I don't use it, I do, but I don't like to use it where I can avoid it and I personally dislike mixing flash with daylight, especially to pull a whole block of shadows like the shot below.

So take this shot:



The bridal party were going from Warwick castle to the glass house on the grounds, where the reception was being held. What I wanted was the castle in the background and the party in the foreground.

When it's processed and the shadows are +2 stops and warmed, this is what you get and what I really wanted:


However, now look at the shadows at 100%:


.. which I then have to clear up with some localised NR (thank you LR4!):


The reality is that this file is perfectly fine, especially for wedding use. After NR and at the size this will be printed, it will be fantastic. However, would I *prefer* cleaner shadows for this? Absolutely. It wouldn't stand up to commercial use though.

In reality I probably could have pushed the file another 1/2 stop brighter to help the shadows, but we were working *fast* as anyone who has done an Asian wedding will know :)

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Re: Will the D1-x really be superior to the new 5DIII?
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2012, 06:48:50 PM »