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Author Topic: New Cinema EOS Above the C300?  (Read 6743 times)

bp

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Re: New Cinema EOS Above the C300?
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2012, 02:44:59 PM »
Guys....  seriously.... a $35k-$49k camera would IN NO WAY be meant to compete with a $8K camera.  It would be aimed at the $50k to $100k high end market.   

If you're the owner of a production studio, and were recently considering purchasing a Sony F65, or an Arri Alexa, or even a RED Epic setup, this announcement would pique your interest.  If the FS700 announcement made you drool, this is obviously not meant for you.  This is just funny.

Do you think Canon has no interest in catering to bigtime studios as well as the indie crowd?
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Re: New Cinema EOS Above the C300?
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2012, 02:44:59 PM »

SPG

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Re: New Cinema EOS Above the C300?
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2012, 02:51:12 PM »
I'm not in the market for a $35,000 camera, but I don't mind if Canon makes one. I'd still like to see some action in the under $5,000 end of the C series.
Sony has a LOT more money than Canon and it looks like they are aiming to take Canon out, which they can easily do since they actually LISTEN to their customers and are releasing state of the art tech, unlike Canon.
Sony may be a larger company than Canon, but Sony as a whole is not profitable right now. Canon is. That makes a bigger difference for R&D budgets. I welcome every company that makes a good product and keeps the competition alive. Not that I'm going to buy all of them (I ain't no Phillip Bloom) but the fact that they exist makes it more likely that an even better camera will be right around the corner.

gene_can_sing

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Re: New Cinema EOS Above the C300?
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2012, 03:07:27 PM »
but the fact that they exist makes it more likely that an even better camera will be right around the corner.

But that's the BIG problem with Canon right now is that everyone keeps thinking that a good camera is "Right around the corner," and they have repeatedly FAILED to deliver time and time again.

The moire started with the 5D2 and continued with the 7D, 60D, T2i and T3i.

Then they release the WAY overprice C-300. Then the 5D3 has a really soft video image.

People are sick of waiting. Canon needs to release the 4K EOS right NOW or else Sony is really going to clean them up. My cut off is NAB. I don't want to go Sony, but I am going to have too if Canon doesn't release anything :(

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: New Cinema EOS Above the C300?
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2012, 03:12:42 PM »
35K eh.... good luck Canon. The price point on the C300 was ridiculos compared to functionality, can't help wonder why it should be any better on any new camera.

Look at Sony (FS700 for 8K)... and let's see what Panasonic throws out there in 4-5 days.

Wouldn't they be better off adding zebra stripes, focus peaking and a truly crisp 1920x1080 2x2 sampled 1.6x crop video mode to the 5D3 and then getting raves about that and having the 5D3 fly off shelves like mad to video people again rather than try to release the sorts of many $$$$$$$$$ video cams that are already out there and where it will be hard to actually stand out?

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Re: New Cinema EOS Above the C300?
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2012, 03:33:46 PM »
35K eh.... good luck Canon. The price point on the C300 was ridiculos compared to functionality, can't help wonder why it should be any better on any new camera.

Look at Sony (FS700 for 8K)... and let's see what Panasonic throws out there in 4-5 days.

Wouldn't they be better off adding zebra stripes, focus peaking and a truly crisp 1920x1080 2x2 sampled 1.6x crop video mode to the 5D3 and then getting raves about that and having the 5D3 fly off shelves like mad to video people again rather than try to release the sorts of many $$$$$$$$$ video cams that are already out there and where it will be hard to actually stand out?

I think there might be an internal struggle at Canon between the photo group and video group which are still 2 different group i beleive.  Theyy probably both try to pull the stings towards them but that could get dangerous.  Not sure there is a market for too many different model.  I would prefer the approach like you suggest to make a few product that stand out, kill competition in that segement and completely dominate it.  Now the risk is they may be diluting the final product, splitting features between different models...
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Ed_5D

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Re: New Cinema EOS Above the C300?
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2012, 03:41:36 PM »
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<strong>A higher end C300?<br />


</strong>There is some thought that we may be seeing a new Cinema EOS video camera announced or shown at NAB instead of the 4K DSLR.</p>
<p>It’s rumoured to be priced in the $30K  range. No specs were given, but this info also appeared <a href="https://twitter.com/#!/MNS1974/statuses/189542920385339393" target="_blank">on a twitter feed</a> with a price mentioned over $35K.</p>
<p>I will say, information about a 4K DSLR has been hard to come by so far.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>


I don't see why Canon would do that... @35k?? I mean... have you seen the specs on the new sony FS-700?? It's like even the C-300 looks pointless @ $16K when compared to the Fs-700 that has all the same gimmicks PLUS 240FPS at full 1080P under $10K
So my guess is that Canon will announce a camera that costs as much as a RED EPIC but doesn't match or surpass its specs.
The c300 for $16K is under specced. it lacks hi speed... for cinema a camera without high speed is crippled... I mean, they want to step up into the world of digital cinema "The story begins..." blah blah blah... but the story was born wrong.

Ed_5D

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Re: New Cinema EOS Above the C300?
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2012, 03:51:29 PM »
35K eh.... good luck Canon. The price point on the C300 was ridiculos compared to functionality, can't help wonder why it should be any better on any new camera.

Look at Sony (FS700 for 8K)... and let's see what Panasonic throws out there in 4-5 days.
Well, if Canon is putting out a camera for $30-35k, then it better compete with and come damn close to Arri's Alexa (2k, dynamic range of film, etc). It certainly has to beat the Red Epic by a good amount.

That said, its still a small niche camera. But, I imagine some of the tech would trickle down to an EOS 4k camera, so, it's at least worth watching for that reason.

Close to ALEXA? good luck with that.... ALEXA is in a class by its own... not even EPIC goes there... you have to work with it and the do the Post Production process to know what i'm talking about here... Alexa is worth every penny. It is like a really amazing Film Cinema Camera simulator... just amazing... the dynamic range, organic film grain and image quality in general vs. the weight of the files is just... jaw dropping.
With EPIC what you might be saving on camera equipment you must invest in post production infrastructure because of the stupidly heavy data it outputs... and without proxys (as in red one) is almost impossible to manage.

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Re: New Cinema EOS Above the C300?
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2012, 03:51:29 PM »

bp

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Re: New Cinema EOS Above the C300?
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2012, 04:06:12 PM »
I think maybe CR should stick to consumer-to-semi-pro-level rumors, because it seems like people don't get that this would be a whole different level of camera.  Post after post comparing this rumor to the FS700 - haha

In other news, Nissan Europe may develop a new Formula One car, priced at $800K... and the verdict from the CR crowd is that it is way overpriced compared to the upcoming Scion FR-S, and Nissan should just improve the Altima first.    ???
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preppyak

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Re: New Cinema EOS Above the C300?
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2012, 04:18:41 PM »
If you want to know why the C300 worths it's price, read all of this: http://carousel.hu/c300/
The C300 is perfect for easy post-production, with a very-very decent codec.

The camera you wrote - the Sony FS700 - records with a bitrate of 28Mbps.....
I think that is part of what people are missing is that these cameras are a small part of the production process. Most places aren't even buying them, they rent. If the C300 workflow is much simpler than the RED Scarlett, then it doesn't matter which costs less, you'll save thousands in labor costs since you're editing will go faster. If it handles low-light better, you'll save money that would have been spent on gaffers and grips and lights. Especially in comparison to RED, where you have to double your costs with all their proprietary crap.

I can probably count on my hands the number of shots at taken at more than 60fps that I've seen on TV in the last 6 months. Aside from the Discovery channel show where they slo-mo things exploding. You dont need 4k @ 240fps when your finished product is broadcast at 720 and your show is people talking in an apartment.
Close to ALEXA? good luck with that.... ALEXA is in a class by its own... not even EPIC goes there... you have to work with it and the do the Post Production process to know what i'm talking about here... Alexa is worth every penny. It is like a really amazing Film Cinema Camera simulator... just amazing... the dynamic range, organic film grain and image quality in general vs. the weight of the files is just... jaw dropping.
Yeah, I kind of figure they won't get all the way there, but, I think that is the way they would go. They don't seem to care to play the jaw-dropping spec game; they take the more practical approach. I doubt they'll get to the dynamic range that Alexa has (which is just nuts), but, if they can improve the workflow compared to competitors, its a way to corner the market
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 04:20:30 PM by preppyak »

Bob Howland

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Re: New Cinema EOS Above the C300?
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2012, 04:25:18 PM »
I think maybe CR should stick to consumer-to-semi-pro-level rumors, because it seems like people don't get that this would be a whole different level of camera.  Post after post comparing this rumor to the FS700 - haha

In other news, Nissan Europe may develop a new Formula One car, priced at $800K... and the verdict from the CR crowd is that it is way overpriced compared to the upcoming Scion FR-S, and Nissan should just improve the Altima first.    ???

Maybe you should read this: http://www.eoshd.com/content/7767/canon-c300-versus-arri-alexa-on-game-of-thrones  Here's a quote from that posting: "The big story here is just how mind-blowingly good mass produced low cost technology is getting."

HurtinMinorKey

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Re: New Cinema EOS Above the C300?
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2012, 04:25:59 PM »
35K eh.... good luck Canon. The price point on the C300 was ridiculos compared to functionality, can't help wonder why it should be any better on any new camera.

Look at Sony (FS700 for 8K)... and let's see what Panasonic throws out there in 4-5 days.
Well, if Canon is putting out a camera for $30-35k, then it better compete with and come damn close to Arri's Alexa (2k, dynamic range of film, etc). It certainly has to beat the Red Epic by a good amount.

That said, its still a small niche camera. But, I imagine some of the tech would trickle down to an EOS 4k camera, so, it's at least worth watching for that reason.

Close to ALEXA? good luck with that.... ALEXA is in a class by its own... not even EPIC goes there... you have to work with it and the do the Post Production process to know what i'm talking about here... Alexa is worth every penny. It is like a really amazing Film Cinema Camera simulator... just amazing... the dynamic range, organic film grain and image quality in general vs. the weight of the files is just... jaw dropping.
With EPIC what you might be saving on camera equipment you must invest in post production infrastructure because of the stupidly heavy data it outputs... and without proxys (as in red one) is almost impossible to manage.

But there are also people who say that the c300 produces more accurate colors right out of the camera.  This can be a huge deal for keeping costs down.

I think people are so riled up because the 5d mk iii was so blatantly nerfed, and it's gonna take them a while to get over it.  All the hardware is there, all they need to do is re-work the firmware.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 04:30:09 PM by HurtinMinorKey »

Minnesota Nice

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Re: New Cinema EOS Above the C300?
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2012, 04:29:20 PM »
I'll sell my kidney and other non vital body parts to get a 4K camera that can film at least at 120fps.

bp

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Re: New Cinema EOS Above the C300?
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2012, 05:18:16 PM »
Maybe you should read this: http://www.eoshd.com/content/7767/canon-c300-versus-arri-alexa-on-game-of-thrones  Here's a quote from that posting: "The big story here is just how mind-blowingly good mass produced low cost technology is getting."

No argument there - you can now get 98% of the way there for under $10k, and maybe in the example above, 99% for $15k... which is indeed mind blowing.  But there will always be the big boys, who are willing to pay 10x the price for that last percent.  I was simply pointing out that if this camera rumor is true, it's most likely aimed at those big boys, not at those of us who are happily riding the wave of mass produced low cost technology.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 05:20:35 PM by bp »
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Re: New Cinema EOS Above the C300?
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2012, 05:18:16 PM »

Musouka

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Re: New Cinema EOS Above the C300?
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2012, 05:18:33 PM »
Sony has a LOT more money than Canon and it looks like they are aiming to take Canon out, which they can easily do since they actually LISTEN to their customers and are releasing state of the art tech, unlike Canon.

Canon spends around $4bn (using the exchange rate of 80 Yen per USD) in R&D annually (link) which translates into 8-9% of their net sales. Sony spend around $5.65bn which is around 6% if I'm not mistaken (PDF link page 38). Sony is involved in more industries than Canon so it's spread across more fileds. I was surprised that Canon has more employees (197K) than Sony (168K).

Sony net sales for Fiscal 2010 (7,181,300 million yen) were almost double that of Canon (3,706,901 million yen). However, they posted a loss of 259,585 million yen (after taxes) compared to a net profit of 246,603 million yen for Canon (after taxes). If you look at pages 54-5, you will see that the CPD arm is the least profitable (despite it accounting for over 50% of the total revenue)

Sony is facing difficult times ahead financially with a revised forecast of $6.4bn in net losses.

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/11revision_sony.pdf

They would be able to cover those with their $8bn in cash reserves (as of March 31, 2011) and are expecting to return to profitability by April 2013 (estimated $2.2bn in profits).

While I'm not sure how that would affect their camera divisions, rumor has it that they are laying off 10,000 people (that's being denied, however) or 6% of their workforce. Half of these is expected to come from a Chemical business they are selling, however.

The strong Yen is hurting both and it's only showing signs of weakening recently:

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/market_moves.html

gene_can_sing

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Re: New Cinema EOS Above the C300?
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2012, 05:52:26 PM »
I think the point most people are making is that Canon NEEDS to take care of their core video customers, which they have NOT been doing. I can afford up to an $8K camera, but I want Canon to release something worth buying, which is NOT the underspec'd / overpriced C-300.

Canon needs to get back to their core customers because they are losing them fast to Sony because of the current F-100.

A $35K camera is going to do most of their customers no good and will just leave us hanging AGAIN.

Stop this non-sense Canon and just release a decent mid range price video offering.

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Re: New Cinema EOS Above the C300?
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2012, 05:52:26 PM »