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Author Topic: Cinema EOS 1D & EOS C500 for NAB  (Read 16406 times)

DarkKnightNine

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Re: Cinema EOS 1D & EOS C500 for NAB
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2012, 12:58:46 AM »
All this suggests to me is that Canon has gotten a taste of the ridiculous prices that people in the cinematography world are willing to pay and have become a money hungry entity. They don't innovate or revolutionize, they only capitalize. Yes I'm sure both camera will be heralded as the greatest thing of the moment (until something inevitably better comes out), but there is absolutely no reason for those price points other than the foolishness of the industry for which they are being marketed to. Unfortunately, Canon has been bitten by that bug and we are seeing the same kind of inflated prices on the still photography side. There was no reason for the 5D Mark III to be that expensive. Heck Nikon had to buy components from other manufacturers for the D800 and yet they were able to keep the pricing lower. It saddens me to see Canon go down this road because it means that these kind of inflated prices may continue and thus become the norm for us still camera folks.
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Re: Cinema EOS 1D & EOS C500 for NAB
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2012, 12:58:46 AM »

Ranga

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Re: Cinema EOS 1D & EOS C500 for NAB
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2012, 02:12:42 AM »
I use a 60D with EF-S 17 55 and EF 50 f/1.4. All the newer lenses and bodies have been priced out of my reach. 60D with magic lantern to me, is more useful than the 5D mk III. Id be willing to go up to $4500 for an EOS 1D. Ideal price would have been around $3000. I will leave the expensive toys for the rich boys/girls and rent out a Sony F3 kit or a Sony FS100 kit for less than $200 a day.

Drizzt321

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Re: Cinema EOS 1D & EOS C500 for NAB
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2012, 02:32:40 AM »
All this suggests to me is that Canon has gotten a taste of the ridiculous prices that people in the cinematography world are willing to pay

Yup, it really is kinda ridiculous. However, historically, it probably has actually cost that much for a lot of the equipment. After all, if you're going to be releasing a full feature length big movie, you better have the image quality (what defines that is left up to the cinematographer & director) to back it up. And that means really great lenses, lots of very well built tripods, dolly's, lighting (continuous! no fancy strobes for video to freeze the motion), all the people who have spent years learning how to use it, and the organization to bring it all together.

So, while it would be really nice to see some prices come down for some of the stuff that seems like it's just a firmware update away, *cough*Magic Lantern*cough*, the reality is that the high margin stuff at the mid/high end is where they really want to be positioned. And to meet the tolerances expected, it will actually cost more to produce and ensure that nearly every single piece of equipment delivered meets the QA standards for that product.
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Woody

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Re: Cinema EOS 1D & EOS C500 for NAB
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2012, 03:28:15 AM »
They don't innovate or revolutionize, they only capitalize. Yes I'm sure both camera will be heralded as the greatest thing of the moment (until something inevitably better comes out), but there is absolutely no reason for those price points other than the foolishness of the industry for which they are being marketed to.

Well, at least we know Canon won't go under anytime soon... Their profit may fall due to the strong Yen and other natural calamities, but they sure know how to recuperate their loss in profits. ;D Sony, OTOH, is seriously bleeding.

Unfortunately, Canon has been bitten by that bug and we are seeing the same kind of inflated prices on the still photography side. There was no reason for the 5D Mark III to be that expensive.

It should be pointed out the prices of 5D3 vs D800 are not necessarily the same in every part of the world. In S.E. Asia, the D800 costs about US$100 MORE than the 5D3.

Ivar

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Re: Cinema EOS 1D & EOS C500 for NAB
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2012, 03:44:20 AM »
Quite interesting.

Wasn't the reason for (somewhat questionable for 1Ds owners) merging the 1D and 1Ds to keep the costs down?

Now a similarily "megapixeled" with only some more video capabilities the new camera doesn't make sense, isn't it? Instead of the 1D & the 1Ds we would have the 1Dx and the 1DC(inema), history repeated.
Wouldn't a high MP 1DxS made more sense?


simonfilm

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Re: Cinema EOS 1D & EOS C500 for NAB
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2012, 03:49:42 AM »
Does anybody know what could be the price of the componets that make up a C500 that has a price of $35000?

Thank you very much!

Simon.

Canon-F1

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Re: Cinema EOS 1D & EOS C500 for NAB
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2012, 03:53:24 AM »
I seriously HOPE they keep the megapixels down. High Megapixels = bad video because of the downscaling that is needed..

well that is not true, if you use pixel binning.
and 18 MP would not be the optimum for 4k.

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Re: Cinema EOS 1D & EOS C500 for NAB
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2012, 03:53:24 AM »

Canon-F1

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Re: Cinema EOS 1D & EOS C500 for NAB
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2012, 03:56:13 AM »
Does anybody know what could be the price of the componets that make up a C500 that has a price of $35000?

Thank you very much!



same that makes ARRI cost 60k-120k i guess...

DavidRiesenberg

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Re: Cinema EOS 1D & EOS C500 for NAB
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2012, 04:28:42 AM »
Does anybody know what could be the price of the componets that make up a C500 that has a price of $35000?

Thank you very much!

Simon.

I'd guess about $2000-$3000.

dichiaras

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Re: Cinema EOS 1D & EOS C500 for NAB
« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2012, 04:40:52 AM »
Canon EOS C500

To compete with RED Epic
4K at 120fps EOS RAW via 3G HD-SDI
At 60 fps EOS RAW from the C500 is 12 bit.
Priced around $35,000

Great, that's just the upgrade from my 1100D I was waiting for.  ;D

Musouka

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Re: Cinema EOS 1D & EOS C500 for NAB
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2012, 04:45:27 AM »

My guess is that people looking for an exciting still camera are going to be out of luck for another cycle or two, at least from Canon.   And with Sony's massive loss this year we might see some scaling back from that competition, so we are likely to see some serious stagnation for a while.

Under the One Sony plan, the company is going to "focus on digital imaging, gaming and mobile for growth, until those three make up 70 percent of its total sales in 2014." (source, emphasis added) so we can expect the company to push forward in the digital imaging arena with competitive products.

Canon-F1

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Re: Cinema EOS 1D & EOS C500 for NAB
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2012, 04:51:54 AM »
Under the One Sony plan, the company is going to "focus on digital imaging, gaming and mobile for growth, until those three make up 70 percent of its total sales in 2014." (source, emphasis added) so we can expect the company to push forward in the digital imaging arena with competitive products.

question is.. focus on NEX or ALPHA?

will sony spend R&D on a sector (alpha) it will be very hard for them to compete?
they have to work on the lens lineup. im not sure that the results will justifie it.

but then... what do i know.  ;)
i see only my surrounding and i donĀ“t know a single person with a sony alpha.

mb66energy

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Re: Cinema EOS 1D & EOS C500 for NAB
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2012, 05:13:39 AM »
My bet (from simply calculating ...):
It will have something around
  8 Mio x 5.3 Mio pixels
to allow 2x2 or 4x4 binning for quad HD (2160)/4k and HD (1080)
resulting in 42 MPix.

So it will be the high MPix alternative to the 5D Mk III with enhanced
and future proof video capabilities. And the studio cam for Hi Res stills. And an
alternative to other full frame cameras with roughly 40 MPix. And hopefully
a small raw with 10MPix with binning: Each resulting pixel created from1 red, 1
blue and 2 green photosites.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 05:16:48 AM by mb66energy »
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Re: Cinema EOS 1D & EOS C500 for NAB
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2012, 05:13:39 AM »

Ranga

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Re: Cinema EOS 1D & EOS C500 for NAB
« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2012, 05:49:58 AM »
This is what the Sony FS700 has to offer for $8000 but 4k would come as a firmware upgrade that has to be purchased.

This is what u get for the price......


ISO 500 (0 dB) to ISO 16,000 (30 dB) sensitivity

Cranks from 1 to 960 fps for fast motion to super-slow motion

Four ND filter levels: clear, 2, 4 & 6 stops

Four HyperGamma settings (same as F3)

WorldCam 50/60Hz systems

Exmor Super 35mm sensor 11.6-megapixles

Effective pixels (photo): approx. 8,400,000 pixels (16:9) or approx. 7,100,000 pixels (4:3)

Low aliasing (grossly over sampled HD)

Runs cool, no grain and no fan noise

Large buttons and switches with orange backgrounds for easy auto/manual distinction

Arri Rossette with micro-adjusting (for connecting grips, etc.)

Face detection

Auto/manual iris and focus with Sony lenses (lenses sold separately)

Features dual XLR inputs, a DC input, an FMU port for flash memory unit, SD / MemoryStick card slot, BNC connector
and HDMI output

Removable grip features four easy-to-use buttons including Start/Stop, Photo, 4x/8x expandable focus and push-button auto iris

Display offers video/film selections for distance (meters/feet), sensitivity (dB gain/ ISO) and shutter (speed/angle)

BNC connector offers 3G/HD-SDI and a planned future firmware upgrade will enable 4K data-stream output

Camera supports 1920 x 1080/60p full HD recording and still image capture

mb66energy

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Re: Cinema EOS 1D & EOS C500 for NAB
« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2012, 07:08:12 AM »
Does anybody know what could be the price of the componets that make up a C500 that has a price of $35000?

Thank you very much!

Simon.

I worked in elementary particle physics 20 years ago. There I learned a little bit about data handling with large data sets at very high bandwidths of signal acquisition.

Look at a sensor of 8 MPix which has to be read out 60 times a second. You have to do 480 Million 12 or 14 bit deep analog to digital conversions after transferring the analog signals from the photosites to the acquisition and conversion electronics. The analog signal has to be precise within 0.05 percent if you need 10 bit precision.

That is a hard job, just today. 20 years ago we paid for an oscilloscop with 500 MHz bandwidth and 1000 million samples per second (just 8 bit depth) 30 000 German marks - means sth. like 30 000 EUR/$ today. That scope had a monochrome display, no 8 MPix CCD or CMOS sensor, needed 200 watts of power and was sized like a PC. Weight: 12 kilograms. It was tiny compared to the competitors!

Todays cameras need much higher precision and include a lot of other critical components. Yes, technology has advanced, but circuit board design is a very time consuming procedure for thes products and we have seen a lot of advance in power consumption down to some watts - making the devices hand holdable with a 2 hr power source.

I am no specialist in these modern data acquisition systems but I if I remember prices, sizes and efforts 20 years ago just to sample some signal ... the price of 600 EUR/$ for an EOS 600D is a joke for what you get for.

C500 will provide - compared to a 600D - much better circuitry for cleaner signals and 4 times the video resolution resulting in 4 times of data acquisition speed. Getting 4 times faster data acquisition doesn't cost 4 times the money, efforts and therefore prices rise dramatically with speed - compare it to the processor cost 10 years ago where you payd twice the price for a 10 percent higher CPU frequency.

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Re: Cinema EOS 1D & EOS C500 for NAB
« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2012, 07:08:12 AM »