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Author Topic: CANON U.S.A. INTRODUCES EOS-1D C DIGITAL SLR CAMERA FEATURING 4K HIGH-RESOLUTION VIDEO CAPTURE  (Read 20217 times)

dilbert

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Riddle me this...
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2012, 11:42:18 AM »
$10,000 was my limit for this thing, I mean how many cameras do they need at the $15k mark?  There are going to be numerous 4K offerings at NAB and I guarantee you some of them will be 1/2 the price of this thing.  I really thought they were going with the DSLR form factor to make a camera that was 4K but still affordable.

Maybe $15,000 is (or was) the sweet spot for pricing of professional video cameras when they did the initial market research and planning for these cameras?

Thus they were likely designed to target that price point and are being delivered accordingly.

And once that plan has been finalised, selling for less is to go down Sony's path - not posting a profit - and then questions are raised across all aspects of the business decision making process.

So if the sweet spot for digital camera pricing has moved to $8000 since the evolution of the 5D2 (or thereabouts) then you can't expect Canon to deliver to that price point for quite some time.


The thing is, there will always be people shouting on the internet "why isn't X cheaper?". I'll wager that a good percentage of those will always complain about the price being too high because that's just what people do.

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Riddle me this...
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2012, 11:42:18 AM »

dilbert

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READ THE PRESS RELEASE...
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2012, 11:45:39 AM »
“The Canon EOS-1D C digital SLR camera was designed in response to the needs of filmmakers, television producers, and other high-level motion-imaging professionals,” stated Yuichi Ishizuka, executive vice president and general manager, Imaging Technologies & Communications Group, Canon U.S.A. “Not only does it combine 4K and Full HD video capture with a convenient design, its use of dual CF cards also offers an efficient workflow compatible with today’s post-production requirements.”

If you're not in that group of people above then why are you complaining about the price?

Clearly Canon understands who its target audience is and clearly some people would like to think they're part of a group that quite clearly they're not.

ces416

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mmmmm.... I think the important thing to remember is that Canon is dealing with two shoppers.  The video people and the photo people.  This is most likely a "photo people" product.  My guess is the canon video team (not cinema eos team)  has worked a long time to achieve, 4k in a camera.  and now they have.  It's novelty.

here's the thing.  99.99% of us have no business shooting 4k.  Our stuff will end up at best on a nice 1080 progressive television screen. Most likely the web. All the James Cameron's and Peter Jackson's of tomorrow do.  And I guarantee you they aren't going to make their movie in 4:2:2 color space. 

That is why the Alexa does so well.  It's got itself into the digital cinema market with a modest resolution of 2k
format.  The Pro Res formats are an editors candy.  and it has Great frame rates and color depth that you can't dream up.  It's great for commercials and television in general.  Of course it's also $65,000.

The other thing is the wrapper.
 If you are going to use this as a video camera, You probably plan on editing your footage.
The professional world has spoken.  Nobody wants to edit 4:2:0 h.264 anymore.  The professional wants 10 or 12 bit large files full of dazzling information to control and manipulate how we please.

my wish list:
I hope THE cinema EOS team is working on...
1.  Canon 10 or 12 bit raw video format.
2.  Perhaps a more affordable version of the C300 <---(Which I love)
3.  and maybe 60p at 1080p with a workable video format that isn't h.264

I think the c300 is awesome I got to use it this week for the first time.  I can't wait to see what they come
out with next.

What is any non professional going to do with 4k?




Axilrod

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Re: Professional video products
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2012, 11:50:03 AM »
If you go to Canon's USA website, you will not find the 1D_C, C300 or C500 in the consumer digital camera products where the 1DX. 5D3, etc are all found.

You will find the 1D_C, C300 and C500 under the professional video products part of their website.

It would seem that if you can only afford $8k for a video camera and anything more than that would break your budget/bank then you are not part of Canon's target market for these cameras. If I was a professional videographer, and the 1D_C was perfect for me then I'd be working out the numbers to make it work - I wouldn't be bitching about not having enough cash.

Will Canon bring out a professional product under $10k? Maybe a C100? Who knows and only time will tell.

Actually the 1DX, 5D3, all the way down to the 60D and powershots are all under "professional imaging products" as well, so that doesn't really matter.

And it's not that I don't have enough cash and I never complain about price, but I just don't think this camera is worth $15k.  And I know there were lots of people that are looking for a large-sensor video camera from Canon that's under $10k, it's a huge segment.  Other companies are making cameras in this price range, so why is it so unreasonable to expect something from Canon?  I guess this isn't the camera, but I had been hoping that it was since November, so I'm a little disappointed, that's all. 
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 11:58:07 AM by Axilrod »
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dilbert

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Re: Professional video products
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2012, 11:50:54 AM »
If you go to Canon's USA website, you will not find the 1D_C, C300 or C500 in the consumer digital camera products where the 1DX. 5D3, etc are all found.

You will find the 1D_C, C300 and C500 under the professional video products part of their website.

It would seem that if you can only afford $8k for a video camera and anything more than that would break your budget/bank then you are not part of Canon's target market for these cameras. If I was a professional videographer, and the 1D_C was perfect for me then I'd be working out the numbers to make it work - I wouldn't be bitching about not having enough cash.

Will Canon bring out a professional product under $10k? Maybe a C100? Who knows and only time will tell.

Actually the 1DX, 5D3, all the way down to the 60D and powershots are all under "professional imaging products" as well, so that doesn't really matter.

Except that the 1D_C, C300 and C500 are not listed as consumer products.

HurtinMinorKey

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$15K, wow. Canon, your not helping the stereotype of Japanese execs.  The play here should have been obvious,  add 1000$ to the 1dx, and call it the 1C.  Nobody is buying your camcorders anyway.

I was really hopeful yesterday,  now you are going to make me log into my Fidelity account and sell my CAJ.

CES makes a good point, nobody who wants 4k is going to want to edit in in 4:2:2. 
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 11:55:23 AM by HurtinMinorKey »

dilbert

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I hope THE cinema EOS team is working on...
1.  Canon 10 or 12 bit raw video format.
2.  Perhaps a more affordable version of the C300 <---(Which I love)
3.  and maybe 60p at 1080p with a workable video format that isn't h.264

I think the c300 is awesome I got to use it this week for the first time.  I can't wait to see what they come
out with next.

What is any non professional going to do with 4k?

Read the brief on the C500 - 10bit (4:2:2) 4K or 12bit (4:4:4) 2K - both at 60fps etc.

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flanniganj

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I feel like i've read this thread before. I think if I copied this, did a find/replace of 1D C for 5D Mk III and $15,000 for $3,500, it would be pretty darn close! :D

Not a criticism, but it is either that Canon has repeated the same silly mistake, or people in these threads are seldom satisfied. Truth be told it's probably a mix of both.

Remembering back to marketing courses in college, if you price something and someone agrees to it immediately, then it's too low. However — and this is a big however — if you become known as the overpriced brand, that's something that hangs around your neck for a long time and it's way worse for the bottom line than marginal profit loss.

Rishaar

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Re: READ THE PRESS RELEASE...
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2012, 11:58:33 AM »
“The Canon EOS-1D C digital SLR camera was designed in response to the needs of filmmakers, television producers, and other high-level motion-imaging professionals,” stated Yuichi Ishizuka, executive vice president and general manager, Imaging Technologies & Communications Group, Canon U.S.A. “Not only does it combine 4K and Full HD video capture with a convenient design, its use of dual CF cards also offers an efficient workflow compatible with today’s post-production requirements.”

If you're not in that group of people above then why are you complaining about the price?

Clearly Canon understands who its target audience is and clearly some people would like to think they're part of a group that quite clearly they're not.

I understand your logic, but in this case why a DSLR? This isn't what "high-level motion-imaging professionals" need.
Thisisnot a specialized video camera, super basic features like SDI or XLR are missing, i mean even the display is 3:2, not even 16:9 !!
This is just an unlocked 1DX

dilbert

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Re: READ THE PRESS RELEASE...
« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2012, 12:01:49 PM »
“The Canon EOS-1D C digital SLR camera was designed in response to the needs of filmmakers, television producers, and other high-level motion-imaging professionals,” stated Yuichi Ishizuka, executive vice president and general manager, Imaging Technologies & Communications Group, Canon U.S.A. “Not only does it combine 4K and Full HD video capture with a convenient design, its use of dual CF cards also offers an efficient workflow compatible with today’s post-production requirements.”

If you're not in that group of people above then why are you complaining about the price?

Clearly Canon understands who its target audience is and clearly some people would like to think they're part of a group that quite clearly they're not.

I understand your logic, but in this case why a DSLR? This isn't what "high-level motion-imaging professionals" need.

Given that the brief for this camera states that Canon have been consulting with the industry, I'm inclined to believe that they've delivered what the industry accepts/needs/wants over speculation from others...

ces416

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Read the brief on the C500 - 10bit (4:2:2) 4K or 12bit (4:4:4) 2K - both at 60fps etc.
[/quote]

Wow i can't believe i missed that!  Now that is what I am talking about!

This is a camera I can look forward to.

Axilrod

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I feel like i've read this thread before. I think if I copied this, did a find/replace of 1D C for 5D Mk III and $15,000 for $3,500, it would be pretty darn close! :D

Not a criticism, but it is either that Canon has repeated the same silly mistake, or people in these threads are seldom satisfied. Truth be told it's probably a mix of both.

Remembering back to marketing courses in college, if you price something and someone agrees to it immediately, then it's too low. However — and this is a big however — if you become known as the overpriced brand, that's something that hangs around your neck for a long time and it's way worse for the bottom line than marginal profit loss.

Yeah but there were plenty of people that thought the 5DIII was worth $3500, myself included, I would have paid even more for it.  But this thing is NOT worth $15,000 in my opinion, that's the difference.  It has nothing to do with not being able to afford it, there is just no way I could pay $15k for a DSLR body and not feel like I got ripped off.
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So long canon I'm selling my 5d mark II and moving on to the Sony Nex fs700 for around 8,000.00 and many are doing the same! Canon is putting out what they want and not what people are demanding. They are not even trying to address the competition. This lets me know that they are all about a dollar and so am I! So, I'm spending my money elsewhere. Sorry Team Canon but we have other options now. Keep your DSLR for 15,000 body. More than the Scarlet, you can't be serious.

The Sony FS700 is going to cost a lot more than $8000.  $10,000 for the body with 4K Ready as soon as a firmware upgrade is released.
 
So... Then you can start taking 4K Video - Right?
 
Wrong, the Camera cannot record 4K Video without a recorder that will record Sony's proprietary 4K codec.  So you must spend a few thousand more on the new Sony video recorder to be able to store 4K Video. 
 
And, the recorder will probably use a $2,000 version of the Sony Memory stick, so add a few of those, and kiss $20K goodbye.
 
Lets hope you won't have to spend another $2k for special Sony software to edit it.

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Axilrod

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This is most likely a "photo people" product.  My guess is the canon video team (not cinema eos team)  has worked a long time to achieve, 4k in a camera.  and now they have.  It's novelty.

Ok first off, it's a Cinema EOS camera, "designed in response to the needs of filmmakers, television producers, and other high-level motion-imaging professionals,”  It's not a "photo people" product at all. 
 
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psolberg

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Quote
4K video is captured by an approximately APS-H-sized portion of the full image sensor, while Full HD video can be captured in the user’s choice of two different imaging formats:

15 thousand and it can't even record full frame? Duh!!

EOSHD is slamming it.

Quote
The price too is going to be very upsetting to indie filmmakers used to the DSLR revolution, without any alternative DSLR from Canon that even does decent 1080p. I personally feel very bitter that a fledgling 5D Mark II DSLR video revolution was snuffed out with a sub-par video mode on the 5D Mark III in order to make way for a camera I can’t even afford to buy. We don’t want a 4K Hollywood camera we just want decent 1080p at a reasonable price on a full frame stills camera! Or even a C100 to compete with the Sony FS100 sub $6000.
 
There’s a very select niche who will be able to afford to buy and use this 4K beast of a DSLR.
 
For the rest of us there’s the Sony FS100, Nikon D800 and Panasonic GH2 but not really a compelling option from Canon any more.

I have to agree. The 5D3 is clearly crippled to help sel this thing. The video is so smudged...

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