October 01, 2014, 02:18:23 PM

Author Topic: CANON U.S.A. INTRODUCES EOS-1D C DIGITAL SLR CAMERA FEATURING 4K HIGH-RESOLUTION VIDEO CAPTURE  (Read 19131 times)

dilbert

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2979
    • View Profile
Re: READ THE PRESS RELEASE...
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2012, 12:10:04 PM »
“The Canon EOS-1D C digital SLR camera was designed in response to the needs of filmmakers, television producers, and other high-level motion-imaging professionals,” stated Yuichi Ishizuka, executive vice president and general manager, Imaging Technologies & Communications Group, Canon U.S.A. “Not only does it combine 4K and Full HD video capture with a convenient design, its use of dual CF cards also offers an efficient workflow compatible with today’s post-production requirements.”

If you're not in that group of people above then why are you complaining about the price?

Clearly Canon understands who its target audience is and clearly some people would like to think they're part of a group that quite clearly they're not.

I understand your logic, but in this case why a DSLR? This isn't what "high-level motion-imaging professionals" need.
Thisisnot a specialized video camera, super basic features like SDI or XLR are missing, i mean even the display is 3:2, not even 16:9 !!
This is just an unlocked 1DX

I'm willing to bet that you could take any two 1D_C cameras and swap cinema lenses around with much greater confidence of everything still being in focus than you could with a 1DX and L lenses.

Given that the cameras (1DC and 1DX) are so similar, you've got to ask "where does the price difference come from?" Is it just different firmware? Or is there also different hardware? What if the difference comes from much more stringent QA that means it requires more human involvement in the process, thus increasing manufacturing cost?

It is the same with lenses - look at the price of lenses from companies such as Zeis that do work by hand with those form Tamron/Sigma.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: READ THE PRESS RELEASE...
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2012, 12:10:04 PM »

dswatson83

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 243
    • View Profile
Canon does not have a great history of resolving resolution on video modes. 1080P on the 5D mark III even using the better compression still yielded only 800 lines I read. Somehow I just don't trust Canon at 4k on a 1D-c. Why do I believe that 4k on the 1D-c may look similar to what 1080p SHOULD look like and does look like on most other non DSLR video cameras.

dilbert

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2979
    • View Profile
Quote
4K video is captured by an approximately APS-H-sized portion of the full image sensor, while Full HD video can be captured in the user’s choice of two different imaging formats:

15 thousand and it can't even record full frame? Duh!!

EOSHD is slamming it.

Read the press release carefully. For normal video (1080p), it appears to be full frame but not for 4K.

Lets explore that.

The story says that the camera uses a roughly APS-H sized area for 4K shooting. This means that the 4K capture is most likely using the central 4096 x 2160 grid of pixels on the sensor - in effect, it shoots in crop mode. My guess is that the output from doing this will be better (and less intensive on the camera's cpu) than trying to downscale the sensor's native resolution of 5184 x 3456.

4096x2160 is somewhere around a crop factor of 1.4, so I can see why they called it "close to APS-H".

Quote
Quote
The price too is going to be very upsetting to indie filmmakers used to the DSLR revolution, without any alternative DSLR from Canon that even does decent 1080p. I personally feel very bitter that a fledgling 5D Mark II DSLR video revolution was snuffed out with a sub-par video mode on the 5D Mark III in order to make way for a camera I can’t even afford to buy. We don’t want a 4K Hollywood camera we just want decent 1080p at a reasonable price on a full frame stills camera! Or even a C100 to compete with the Sony FS100 sub $6000.
 
There’s a very select niche who will be able to afford to buy and use this 4K beast of a DSLR.
 
For the rest of us there’s the Sony FS100, Nikon D800 and Panasonic GH2 but not really a compelling option from Canon any more.

I have to agree. The 5D3 is clearly crippled to help sel this thing. The video is so smudged...

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the 5D3 simply has the same hardware for video as the 5D2 and thus is similarly limited as to what it can output. Thus the 5D3 wasn't crippled, rather it just wasn't enhanced.

ces416

  • Guest
This is most likely a "photo people" product.  My guess is the canon video team (not cinema eos team)  has worked a long time to achieve, 4k in a camera.  and now they have.  It's novelty.

Ok first off, it's a Cinema EOS camera, "designed in response to the needs of filmmakers, television producers, and other high-level motion-imaging professionals,”  It's not a "photo people" product at all.

Look bro.  From whatever angle you look at this thing It's is an instrument of Photography. IT IS A Digital SLR THAT SHOOTS IN 4K. Digital Cinema Cameras across the board don't have shutters in them that flip.  even old motion picture film cameras had a rotating shutter wheel.  If it looks like a photo camera.  Snaps like a photo camera.  IT'S A PHOTO CAMERA! (that happens to shoot in 4k).  and I promise you at 15,000 film makers and television producers AREN'T GOING TO SHOOT WITH SOMETHING THAT IS A PHOTO CAMERA

HurtinMinorKey

  • 7D
  • *****
  • Posts: 419
    • View Profile
    • carolineculler.com
I've been the biggest apologist for Canon, but seriously, someone should get fired for this. You hear me Canon?

誰かがこのミスのために解雇されるべきである。

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ********
  • Posts: 14532
    • View Profile
Re: READ THE PRESS RELEASE...
« Reply #50 on: April 12, 2012, 12:39:20 PM »
Given that the cameras (1DC and 1DX) are so similar, you've got to ask "where does the price difference come from?" Is it just different firmware? Or is there also different hardware? What if the difference comes from much more stringent QA that means it requires more human involvement in the process, thus increasing manufacturing cost?

None of the above.  A deja vu discussion, but selling price has very little or nothing to do with manufacturing costs.  Why is a 1DsIII triple the cost of a 5DII?  A combination of two main factors - charging what the market will bear, and expected sales volume. 

In the case of the 1D C vs. the 1D X, it's evident that Canon expects to sell far fewer of the 1D C than the 1D X, and priced it accordingly.  Best recent example - the Nikon D800 vs. D800E, essentially the same camera (in fact, the D800E is missing something the D800 has!), so why is the -E variant $300 more?  Nikon expects to sell fewer of them...
EOS 1D X, EOS M, and lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

HurtinMinorKey

  • 7D
  • *****
  • Posts: 419
    • View Profile
    • carolineculler.com
Neuro, I agree with the theory. But I think the analysts are sh*tting the bed on this one. I think their estimated hypothetical sales of "X" at this price, are off by about "X".

canon rumors FORUM


dilbert

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2979
    • View Profile
Re: READ THE PRESS RELEASE...
« Reply #52 on: April 12, 2012, 12:51:47 PM »
In the case of the 1D C vs. the 1D X, it's evident that Canon expects to sell far fewer of the 1D C than the 1D X, and priced it accordingly.  Best recent example - the Nikon D800 vs. D800E, essentially the same camera (in fact, the D800E is missing something the D800 has!), so why is the -E variant $300 more?  Nikon expects to sell fewer of them...

For the D800/E, there's obviously two different manufacturing paths and/or sources of the sensors, thus, yes, you're right, the $300 difference is a reflection of fewer people wanting "no" anti-aliasing and thus economy of scale means that the one that sells less costs more.

drs

  • Power Shot G16
  • **
  • Posts: 26
    • View Profile
A full frame HD option and real 4K output, sounds good to me. I never got the promised 4K and have then only HD as output (C300) which is just odd. Reminded me on the Bayern pattern discussion years ago, what resolution is really available.  Anyway, the price point and the specifications seems to target the RED Scarlet a lot.

What bugs is the 8 bit stuff, that seems so yesterday and not really sufficient if they really want to target us (the VFX artists) with that camera. However, we all have seen what Shane Hurlbut was able to pull off even from the tiny 5Dm2 (tiny compared to the productions he does), and with the cinematic curve applied now to the material (I hope Technicolor was involved into that), then the hopes might go up even more.

However, the torrent of new cameras makes me wonder what will happen next, certainly NAB will unveil a lot of new stuff. Then the prices will drop with so much competition. I do not feel very safe these days to invest money in the next few month, but I have to. I'm curious what this year will offer, a lot I guess.

dswatson83

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 243
    • View Profile
The 5D mark II only became popular for video once people realized that they could create movies that looked amazing with a $2500 camera and $500 lens. Before, they had previously been relying on expensive systems which kept many people out of the business. We decided it was worth it to deal with the cumbersome body types, impractical focusing, crappy formats that made editing difficult and grading worse, lack of ND filters and XLR audio inputs, horrible rolling shutter, and other stuff IF we could make great movies with $750 - $5000 budgets. Canon has it ALL WRONG. We don't want DSLR video cameras. They suck for video. We want great video quality for DSLR prices and with the 5D mark II, it became mostly possible. Sony, Panasonic, and RED are doing it right and trying to bring 35mm or APS-C chip dedicated video cameras  (with real video features) into DSLR prices. I was kind of hoping that since Canon's $800 60d with 3 year old tech can take some pretty amazing video, for $3000, they should be able to make that breathtaking. Guess not.

seanmcr6

  • Guest
In the video post 2 months ago, the Canon guy clearly said they didn't have a proper codec to output 10 bit 422...so they had to use the codec from their XF cam line. (talking about the C300 here) In that video, he stated it takes a good 2 years to develop your own codec. So that would be about now.

The C500 and 1Dc are evolutionary products. These cameras obviously use a new codec. This allows these camera's to process and output what the original cameras should have been able to when they were released.

The 1Dc is exactly a 1Dx with the new codec. That's it. I think it's rather ridiculous that Canon charges an extra $8k for (basically) a codec upgrade.

Time will tell what the price of the C500 is, but I can assure you it will be much more than the $16K that the C300 it. Although, in my opinion, the C500 is simply the camera the C300 should have been...and it should remain at the $16K price point.

Canon has been in the video game for a long, long time. They understand who their customers are and how to make money from them. That's business.

The convergence of photography and videography/filmmaking was unexpected (something Canon has stated a few times) and they are just trying to run with it as best they can. Unfortunately, it is the hobbyist and semi-pro's who are doing all the complaining. I would put the C500 (based on spec sheet) up against a $65,000 alexa. That's an impressive move forward. The C500 also has better output specs than the Red Scarlet....so as long as it performs as stated, it won't be at that price point. Probably closer to the Epic. I still feel like that would be a mistake....but I'm confident that's the comparisons and price points Canon will use.

tjc320

  • Guest
...and here I thought the C300 was priced too high!


I would buy the C300 over this. Here is why: Because I don't need 4K video. I want the 4K sensor but I really don't need 4K video. In the last two years I can't think of one job where I would have used it. The convenience of the C300's body, form factor, and features put it over the 1D Cinema.

For this price I can buy the FS-700 (a camera packed with features) in addition to a Canon 5D Mark III as a B camera as well as a stills camera.

I think that 90% of video shooters could do without the photography features in the 1D Cinema. So why are they in there other than to inflate the price and avoid having to rework a camera style.

Seriously...$15,000 is just ridiculous. Get real Canon.

epiem

  • Guest
WOW, I was hoping for $8000, EXPECTING more like $9000 to $10,000, but $15,000 GTFO o.O

This isn't a "DLSR" it's their C300 with a few less things for almost the same price.

If I'm gunna spend this much money, I rather buy a R.E.D. Scarlet
at least I KNOW what I'm getting.

WTH is Canon doing....

canon rumors FORUM


Caps18

  • Canon 70D
  • ****
  • Posts: 286
    • View Profile
First, I'm not the target consumer for this product. 

But, I think the currency issues going on around the world are impacting prices faster than what people 'expect' prices to be.

Second, this will be marketed to large TV/movie studios as a way to get great video (that is 'future proof'), but don't want to use 'amateur' 5Dm2's.
5D mark 2, 16-35mm f/2.8, 17mm TS-E f/4, 85mm f/1.8, 300mm f/4 + 1.4x, 580 EX Flash

LetTheRightLensIn

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3813
    • View Profile
"Unlike the C300, the EOS-1D C does not offer zebra striping or peaking focus aids, which the company sees as being more important in single-person operated documentary settings, rather than the rig-and-crew situations it expects the 1D C to be used in."

But considering how trivial those are to add (even ML people added it in come on!) why on Earth leave them out? What about the times they are used outside of rig-and-crew? Seems beyond bizarre.

AND more to the 5D3 point, why did they NOT put those two things (plus 1.6x crop 1920x1080 video) in the 5D3?!?!

They just indirectly admitted above that the 5D3 will often be used as single-person operated and thus in dire need of such abilities!

They just make no sense in their actions.

Who is running the roost? Sounds like marketing guys who never picked up a cam in their life and just randomly try to find way to segment products so they can give interesting business presentations.

Do they not read how badly they are getting blasted all over movie filming boards about leaving those basic little things out?

Why? Why?

Just such minor little changes from their marketing department and they could get a 180 degree difference response to their products. Enough with the silly segmentation and games playing already. Wow.


canon rumors FORUM