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Author Topic: Canon EOS 5D Mark III Product Advisory  (Read 34571 times)

fotoray

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Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark III Product Advisory
« Reply #75 on: April 14, 2012, 03:56:31 PM »

Secondly, leaking LCD is very disappointing. That just reflects the deterioration of Canon's workmanship or quality control. For those who understand how Canon's cameras were put together, can you please shed some light on what type of "countermeasures" would be deployed to fix the issue? I think it would require significant work to get to the part between the LCD and the sensor. I am just not 100% confident about the skills of the technicians at the Canon service center. I suggest that if the issue does not bother you, just go out and take more photos. If it does, return it now and wait for a few months to get a new one.

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Seems to me that Canon may have felt pressure to get the 5D3 to market, in presence of earthquake issues and competition from Nikon.   There is no other excuse for not discovering this problem in QC and fixing it before distribution.   Not good.   But I am confident Canon can and will fix it.
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Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark III Product Advisory
« Reply #75 on: April 14, 2012, 03:56:31 PM »

llcanon

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Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark III Product Advisory
« Reply #76 on: April 14, 2012, 04:12:08 PM »
Hi, esi32, I am very impressed by your diligence on the tests. I agree with your analysis. I was just trying to ease the concerns by many of us who would seldom 1) shoot in extremely dark environment or 2) use the in-camera meter when shooting in extremely dark environments. My concern is when shooting outdoors of something dark in the shade while standing under the bright sunlight, whether the leak would cause inaccurate metering. But I am still not sure how much light would go through the LCD compared to the viewfinder. If the leak is significant enough to alter meter reading by 1/3 stop or more, then it's unacceptable. And any bandage type of fix (e.g., a black tape) performed outside the factory condition may inadvertently cause more harm to your camera than the leak issue itself (e.g., introduce dusts or alter the position of some precise component by accident).

Anyone has done tests under more normal shooting conditions? I haven't heard any issue so far.

Happy shooting!
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 04:15:48 PM by llcanon »

Respinder

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Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark III Product Advisory
« Reply #77 on: April 14, 2012, 05:24:45 PM »
I am very disappointed by this recent announcement.

Since I will be using this camera in many low-light situations, this will probably become a major issue for me.

My biggest concern is that Canon Canada has not released any press release whatsoever, and the camera stores still claim (as of today) that this is a rumor and that no real hardware problem exists. I have also not heard of any "new shipments" with design changes coming in.

From the various websites covering this, the issue goes well beyond the LCD screen (as the US website describes) to the top display and even the viewfinder, so this is pretty substantial.

I was planning on purchasing this camera this week (prior to my upcoming vacation) but as I will ultimately spend upwards of $6000 on this (kit, accessories, etc), I am pretty concerned about buying this if it is defective? What about all of your thoughts on this? For those of you have who have yet to purchase, has this issue now put you on the fence?

esi32

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Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark III Product Advisory
« Reply #78 on: April 14, 2012, 05:36:09 PM »
Throwing more caution to the wind, I should have a engineering lux meter in my hands early next week, and I'm going to rerun though my tests with ambient light measured by the lux meter instead of just trying to get it right.

Moreover, it's worth remember that depending on the metering mode there's more than just simple metering going on. In evaluative, the metering is tied to the AF points and will change as the camera feels that one AF point or another is more or less in focus and therefore more or less relevant. Likewise, for some lenses (especially macro lenses) the effective aperture will change as the magnification is increased (e.g. see the effective apertures for the MP-E 65 at various magnifications).

I was playing with the camera in the dark earlier and seeing stabling metering in CWA down to what I'm guessing was close to EV 0 or EV -1 (was metering 8s, f/2.8 ISO 200, the only appreciable light source in the room was a pair of mostly black 24" LCDs) but varying the focus—and not over the full throw either—on the macro lens I happened to have on the camera was sufficient to change the metering by more than a stop. I'd really love to be able to get my hands on a ZP.2 EF or Canon CN-E Cine lines with t-stops since they account for actual light loss, but that's outside my budget.

One think I just though of is that metering seemed much more stable in CWA than Evaluative, it's possible that whatever leak exists, only affects certain peripheral zones but does so enough that in low light situations that the camera alters the overall exposure. Stability in various metering modes is on the list of things to test.

My concern is when shooting outdoors of something dark in the shade while standing under the bright sunlight, whether the leak would cause inaccurate metering. But I am still not sure how much light would go through the LCD compared to the viewfinder.

Doesn't seem to be much of an issue in practice. One of my test was shooting from under an relatively bright overhead lamp into the darkest part of the room (I'd guesstimate a 4-6 EV delta between the camera and what the camera was pointed at), and metering seemed pretty reliably as long as the backlight was off, but at the same time I wasn't on a tripod with fixed focus, and I was using evaluative which in general seems more prone to being "jumpy" when in log light/signal cases when I was tried that.

About the only case where you might have a problem would be shooting someone in a long dark tunnel from outside the tunnel under broad daylight, and even then I'm not sure it'd be a problem (and lack a sufficient tunnel to test with).

Quote
If the leak is significant enough to alter meter reading by 1/3 stop or more, then it's unacceptable. And any bandage type of fix (e.g., a black tape) performed outside the factory condition may inadvertently cause more harm to your camera than the leak issue itself (e.g., introduce dusts or alter the position of some precise component by accident).

Well the over the top, "I'm utterly paranoid my images will be wrong" fix, would be to simply put a piece of black gaffer tape over the top LCD and use the rear one for any external meter readings. Won't damage the camera, is easily undo-able, and doesn't involve tinkering in the body. I certainly wouldn't advocate taking a 3-week old camera apart and electrical taping things randomly.

In any case, I think Canon does need to improve the light sealing around the top LCD. The problem I keep coming back to is that so far as I've been able to tell, the meter largely seems unaffected inside the designed range* and under what I'd consider reasonable conditions may prompt a no-action response.


* Again, sample of 1, my camera, which isn't statistically relevant when talking

esi32

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Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark III Product Advisory
« Reply #79 on: April 14, 2012, 06:11:29 PM »
Since I will be using this camera in many low-light situations, this will probably become a major issue for me.

Low light is a very relative term. Just what do you mean by low light?

For example, as I just noted, in my previous post, with the meter on CWA I see a stable meter in a room lit by 2 24" LCDs monitors and nothing more (meter reading 8s f/2.8 ISO 100, est EV0).

If you want to frame your expectations, look though the images you have, anything darker than about EV1* (meters 4s f/2.8 ISO 100 or equivalent), is below the design range of the meter and may not meter correctly. Anything below EV -4* (2m f/2.8 ISO 100 or equivalent) is below the  meter's hard sensitivity floor. As it stands*, anything between EV -4 and EV 1 have the potential to be thrown off by turning the backlight on. There are of course caveats to this, the actual cases are subtly more complicated but that should put you in the ballpark.

Quote
My biggest concern is that Canon Canada has not released any press release whatsoever, and the camera stores still claim (as of today) that this is a rumor and that no real hardware problem exists. I have also not heard of any "new shipments" with design changes coming in.

Keep in mind Canon is a big company, and the regional Canon divisions aren't all in complete sync with each other. Things take unequal amounts of time to work their way though the bureaucracy in different places. There may also be various legal implications with posting something like that in different places, which likely means each region has to run the service notice though legal and that doesn't happen instantly either.

Quote
From the various websites covering this, the issue goes well beyond the LCD screen (as the US website describes) to the top display and even the viewfinder, so this is pretty substantial.

I would urge you to be very careful what you consider valid information while reading about this. The barrier to entry for publishing something on the Internet is incredibly low and there are no safeguards to stop the blind from leading the blind so to speak.

The behavior seen in the CameraTown video, where the meter changes as you move your eye away from the viewfinder, is typical and expected behavior in an SLR where the metering sensor is in the viewfinder—read all of them. Some may be less susceptible to light intrusion because they have a smaller viewfinder, a viewfinder that is more recessed,  or there are other differences in the internal design (different reflectivity of the focus screen for example). But make no mistake, under the right conditions, and those aren't just "with the sun at your back", removing your eye from the viewfinder will change the meter reading.

Quote
I was planning on purchasing this camera this week (prior to my upcoming vacation) but as I will ultimately spend upwards of $6000 on this (kit, accessories, etc), I am pretty concerned about buying this if it is defective? What about all of your thoughts on this? For those of you have who have yet to purchase, has this issue now put you on the fence?

Well it's probably pretty clear that I already own a 5D3, and I'm using my 5D3 with little concern with the reported issue as it doesn't actually seem to be a problem in practice. My 5D3 meters virtually identically to my 1D3 in any situation where I've had the two side by side. Worst case scenario, if Canon determines that they must fix something, there will be a recall and a fix will be made for free, you'll just have the hassle of sending the camera in for the work to be done.

In fact, in practice, the biggest problem I've had with the 5D3 is the missing battery grip, lack of an RRS's L-plate for said missing grip, and having to run release candidate software (LR4.1 RC) to be able to work on the images.



* Based on my testing (though EV1 is the lower design limit for the 5D3's meter) and I reserve the right to adjust those numbers based on further testing.

Tcapp

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Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark III Product Advisory
« Reply #80 on: April 14, 2012, 06:38:37 PM »
Wouldn't the easiest fix just be to push the little on off button again to turn the lcd light off before snapping a photo in super low light?

I understand that won't fix anything if you are in direct sunlight, but that shouldn't matter as much.

Or am I missing something?
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javier

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Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark III Product Advisory
« Reply #81 on: April 14, 2012, 08:10:44 PM »
Update Canon Japan April 14, 2012

※ "dark environment" is such a case are likely to be:.
1- If you have installed the body cap
2- If you attach the lens cap

This sound like they are saying, if you use the body cap or lens cap then "the displayed exposure value may change as a result of the AE sensor’s detection of light from the LCD panel." but at the same time you can not take a picture so the lcd light does not affect the image.

In another words they are trying to do nothing.

 
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 08:17:34 PM by javier »

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Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark III Product Advisory
« Reply #81 on: April 14, 2012, 08:10:44 PM »

marekjoz

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Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark III Product Advisory
« Reply #82 on: April 14, 2012, 08:19:24 PM »
Update Canon Japan April 14, 2012

※ "dark environment" is such a case are likely to be:.
1- If you have installed the body cap
2- If you attach the lens cap

This sound like they are saying, if you use the body cap or lens cap then "the displayed exposure value may change as a result of the AE sensor’s detection of light from the LCD panel." but at the same time you can not take a picture so the lcd light does not affect the image.

In another words they are trying to do nothing.

Really funny info  :)

It sounds ike:
the camera is not operating when:
1 - battery is discharged
2 - battery is charged but not in a camera
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javier

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Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark III Product Advisory
« Reply #83 on: April 14, 2012, 08:48:40 PM »
Update Canon Japan April 14, 2012

※ "dark environment" is such a case are likely to be:.
1- If you have installed the body cap
2- If you attach the lens cap

This sound like they are saying, if you use the body cap or lens cap then "the displayed exposure value may change as a result of the AE sensor’s detection of light from the LCD panel." but at the same time you can not take a picture so the lcd light does not affect the image.

In another words they are trying to do nothing.

Really funny info  :)

It sounds ike:
the camera is not operating when:
1 - battery is discharged
2 - battery is charged but not in a camera

Yes, you understand very clear my message.

marekjoz

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Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark III Product Advisory
« Reply #84 on: April 14, 2012, 08:55:02 PM »
Update Canon Japan April 14, 2012

※ "dark environment" is such a case are likely to be:.
1- If you have installed the body cap
2- If you attach the lens cap

This sound like they are saying, if you use the body cap or lens cap then "the displayed exposure value may change as a result of the AE sensor’s detection of light from the LCD panel." but at the same time you can not take a picture so the lcd light does not affect the image.

In another words they are trying to do nothing.

Really funny info  :)

It sounds ike:
the camera is not operating when:
1 - battery is discharged
2 - battery is charged but not in a camera

Yes, you understand very clear my message.

Translation quote from the site:
"We are currently considering how to respond now. As soon as determined, will guide you at the Canon website."
And response will be like:
"In order to avoid this phenomenom, prior to making photo in described cases follow the procedure:
1. Remove the cap from the camera
2. Remove the cap from the lens"

Jeez, there are more serious problems in Japan to be solved right now...
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 09:29:42 PM by marekjoz »
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dcreisman

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Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark III Product Advisory
« Reply #85 on: April 14, 2012, 09:16:31 PM »
Would this have to be a hardware fix where we'd have to send our camera's in, or could it be taken care of with a firmware update?  Any thoughts?  Sorry if someone already asked this, I didn't have time to read the entire thread.

javier

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Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark III Product Advisory
« Reply #86 on: April 14, 2012, 09:24:35 PM »
Would this have to be a hardware fix where we'd have to send our camera's in, or could it be taken care of with a firmware update?  Any thoughts?  Sorry if someone already asked this, I didn't have time to read the entire thread.

This reminds me iPhone 4 antenna.....

The light leak is a hardware problem so how you fix a hardware problem with a software update?
Like I said before the problem is the AE Sensor is getting too much light through LCD, View finder and lens. when you adjust your meter you are adjusting the meter with all that amount of light.
At the moment the camera take the picture just take the picture with the light coming through the lens and that is why the picture is underexpose.

marekjoz

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Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark III Product Advisory
« Reply #87 on: April 14, 2012, 09:28:09 PM »
Would this have to be a hardware fix where we'd have to send our camera's in, or could it be taken care of with a firmware update?  Any thoughts?  Sorry if someone already asked this, I didn't have time to read the entire thread.

This reminds me iPhone 4 antenna.....

The light leak is a hardware problem so how you fix a hardware problem with a software update?
Like I said before the problem is the AE Sensor is getting too much light through LCD, View finder and lens. when you adjust your meter you are adjusting the meter with all that amount of light.
At the moment the camera take the picture just take the picture with the light coming through the lens and that is why the picture is underexpose.

Someone suggested it already here: if camera knows if lcd is On or Off, it probably could be compensated with firmware. If camera doesn't know lcd light status then it's only fixable by hardware manipulation.
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Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark III Product Advisory
« Reply #87 on: April 14, 2012, 09:28:09 PM »

esi32

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Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark III Product Advisory
« Reply #88 on: April 14, 2012, 10:07:59 PM »
Re. Canon JP's response. As I keep saying, the meter appears to behave normally inside the specified operating range. The camera + a lens cap/body cap + the viewfinder blacked out is not a situation that occors inside the specified parameters for the operation of the meter. People keep ignoring that, but the reality is getting the meter to error inside the designed range requires a considerably high delta in light levels between the top LCD and the subject—and doesn't work on the backlight alone. I'm not convinced yet such a situation will actually happen in practice—hopefully I'll have some actual numbers on that sometime next week.


Someone suggested it already here: if camera knows if lcd is On or Off, it probably could be compensated with firmware. If camera doesn't know lcd light status then it's only fixable by hardware manipulation.

And as I already pointed out that doesn't work because light incident on the LCD, not just the backlight, will also affect the meter reading and the camera doesn't know that the light incident on the meter is actually light incident on the meter. A hardware fix is the only possible fix unless it's determined that the erroneous behavior is only see outside the designed range for the meter's operation.

rlarsen

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Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark III Product Advisory
« Reply #89 on: April 14, 2012, 11:08:45 PM »
I've been busy using my camera and didn't know it had a problem until I read it here. The product advisory has given people an opportunity to be mad about many things. A lot of people online are really mad about stuff.
Some believe Canon rushed the new camera, others are pissed they had to wait so long.  Others want a bunch of new features as long as the price stays low.  And why isn't it just like the new Nikon ? Some say they will never purchase Canon cameras again but visit this website every day. 

I want to start using perfect cameras, can someone suggest a model or brand ?

For years I've driven Honda sedans. Great cars. Recently I received a recall notice for an airbag problem. I brought it to the dealer and they corrected it quickly at no charge.  I appreciate the safety notification and the quick, friendly service, but I'm considering being mad. I spent a lot of money for that car and it should be perfect like a Toyota.

Canon may come up with a reasonable solution to this issue, and I may never hear of anyone having a serious problem with the camera, but I just might become mad anyway.  If I send my camera in once in a while to be cleaned or for a new shutter I'll get by, but if there's any kind of recall, I'm switching to Nikon !










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Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark III Product Advisory
« Reply #89 on: April 14, 2012, 11:08:45 PM »