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Author Topic: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology  (Read 17089 times)

Abraxx

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2012, 04:07:52 PM »
Both the 1DX and the 5D mk3 seem to be limated in resolution by processing speed being able to achieve the required FPS rather than Canon's ability to make a higher MP sensor.

btw processing speed is SLOWER in the 5D3,  compared to the Nikon D800: 6 * 22 vs 4 * 36

Well NO, even when I reduced the D800 resolution, the overall speed and responsiveness of the Canon was FASTER.
And I'm not even talking about the buffer....
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altenae

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2012, 04:09:42 PM »
Both the 1DX and the 5D mk3 seem to be limated in resolution by processing speed being able to achieve the required FPS rather than Canon's ability to make a higher MP sensor.

btw processing speed is SLOWER in the 5D3,  compared to the Nikon D800: 6 * 22 vs 4 * 36

Well NO, even when I reduced the D800 resolution, the overall speed and responsiveness of the Canon was FASTER.
And I'm not even talking about the buffer....

Correct.
Also the buffer write to the card is also SLOW on the D800.

RLPhoto

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2012, 04:46:42 PM »
Is it really a stretch to believe that DXO is being payed off by nikon? its nothing unusual to me and It IS be possible. It would have enough impact to make people switch systems right? Look at all this controversy on this forum. Why wouldn't nikon pay them a million bucks to say their camera is better.

Really now, are we so naive? Just go out and shoot. Its snake oil afterall, its the best thing since sliced bread!  ;D

dlleno

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #63 on: April 19, 2012, 04:49:57 PM »
I suspect thats a little out there, ,and that DXO's reputation would preclude this from happening.  It might not be trivial to accomplish,  but some independant test or even a careful real-world evaluation could show evidence of error and DXO would be toast. 

skitron

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #64 on: April 19, 2012, 04:53:31 PM »
Is it really a stretch to believe that DXO is being payed off by nikon? its nothing unusual to me and It IS be possible.

I suppose it is possible, but I'd rule it out since they have D800 gapping D4 by 6.

Their formula just doesn't reward high ISO as much as other things is all. And that is their right.

My formula does reward high ISO more. And the bottom line question for the prospective buyer is "does YOUR formula reward high ISO more"? If so buy a 5D3 or a D4. These are three fantastic cameras and each is a *little* better at certain things.
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esi32

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #65 on: April 19, 2012, 04:55:39 PM »
I'm not convinced that Canon's DR is a result of worse sensor technology and not the result of a deliberate design objective to limit it. There's nothing, AFAIK, in CMOS or CCD sensors fundamentally that would produce the characteristic sloping curve you see from Canon's cameras. Moreover, virtually no other camera manufacturer shares the same kind of curve or the pervasiveness Canon has when you look at DXO's DR charts. In fact the only Nikon cameras that share that pattern that I'm aware of are the D3, and it's derivatives the D3s and D700.

So Far as I know, DXO, contrary to their claims, doesn't measure just the sensor, their measurements cover the whole signal processing chain from sensor though amps to ADCs, to whatever the processor does to the values before outputting it as a RAW file. While this is certainly is more for useful for the images you'll see but doesn't really provide a means to say anything about the sensor tech.

So why is Canon doing this? That's a darn good question.

Canon-F1

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #66 on: April 19, 2012, 04:56:49 PM »
afaik nikon has not much more to do with the D800 sensor then creating the read out.
so what are you talking about "nikon" sensor design?

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RLPhoto

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #67 on: April 19, 2012, 04:57:27 PM »
I suspect thats a little out there, ,and that DXO's reputation would preclude this from happening.  It might not be trivial to accomplish,  but some independant test or even a careful real-world evaluation could show evidence of error and DXO would be toast.

D800 vs Medium Format with Roth and Ramberg

According to DXO, the Nikon should have won in dynamic range big time (14EV) but the hasselblad won. (12.5EV)

Stuff that in DXO's lens mount and smoke it.


gene_can_sing

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #68 on: April 19, 2012, 05:06:33 PM »

With either camera, I'm sure you can tell exceptional photos. But I must say the d800 score really shocked me since they even beat some of the medium format cameras. Nikon made a big improvement. Perhaps Canon has been working more on their cinema products.

Actually, Canon is getting OWNED in the cinema world by Sony because of their outrageous prices and under-spec'd video cameras. Canon is getting bashed to death on the video forums.

The upcoming Sony FS700 is going to destroy Canon video. I've have not seen this much excitement over a video camera since the 5D2. Video geeks are going nuts over this truly amazing camera for the price.

Meanwhile, Canon is charging 4x as much as Sony, for something that is remotely similar. I had $8K for a Canon video camera, but now that money is going to Sony.

I also find it strange that Canon has very few people testing their pre-production models. It's like, even for very high profile pros, they only use Canon video cameras after they come out. There are many Sony FS700s in the field and it's getting tested to death by many people before it's release in 2 months.

Canon should follow suit, and not hide all their footage until the release of the camera. It shows no confidence.

I also find it strange that the D800 has clean HDMI and a much sharper video image than the 5D3. Depressing.

« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 05:12:08 PM by gene_can_sing »

birdman

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #69 on: April 19, 2012, 05:12:00 PM »
How is anyone over the age of 6 jealous, envious, or mad about a camera company (Nikon) that any consumer or professional could rightly switch over to? I just don't get it...

Do any of you guys know what pros spend on camera gear? And you're telling me that a professional photographer could not and would not sell their gear to go to another system if it was a justified decision?

BTW, I am ordering the D800 to see what it does for me. I have the 50/1.8 AF-D, 85/1.8 AF-D, and the Tokina 28-70/2.6-2.8 to determine how good they are mated with the D800. I will also rent the 16-35 VR and an adapter and shoot side by side with both my 5d2 and D800. I am not expecting much of a determinable difference in my hands. A professional landscape photographer may come to a different conclusion. But my skills probably won't.
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dilbert

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #70 on: April 19, 2012, 07:00:18 PM »
The upcoming Sony FS700 is going to destroy Canon video. I've have not seen this much excitement over a video camera since the 5D2. Video geeks are going nuts over this truly amazing camera for the price.

That's because they're not looking at the total cost of ownership.

Quote
I had $8K for a Canon video camera, but now that money is going to Sony.

We really really do not care how much you had saved up for a Canon video camera nor do we care how you spend it. Might I suggest you spend it on sessions with a psychiatrist so that you can work out your issues?

Bosman

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #71 on: April 19, 2012, 07:08:28 PM »
Laughing at how ridiculous all this banter is. I'm sorry, I know its probably arrogant to make little of what others think is so important...I just can't imagine we were able to create art 10 yrs ago, even 5 yrs ago with these findings! Does this mean our images will finally make us more money???
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LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #72 on: April 19, 2012, 07:29:17 PM »
Laughing at how ridiculous all this banter is. I'm sorry, I know its probably arrogant to make little of what others think is so important...I just can't imagine we were able to create art 10 yrs ago, even 5 yrs ago with these findings! Does this mean our images will finally make us more money???

gee i thought it was about the art and not just money....

Bosman

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #73 on: April 19, 2012, 07:56:12 PM »


gee i thought it was about the art and not just money....
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Mike Ca

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #74 on: April 19, 2012, 08:30:51 PM »
I'm not convinced that Canon's DR is a result of worse sensor technology and not the result of a deliberate design objective to limit it. There's nothing, AFAIK, in CMOS or CCD sensors fundamentally that would produce the characteristic sloping curve you see from Canon's cameras. Moreover, virtually no other camera manufacturer shares the same kind of curve or the pervasiveness Canon has when you look at DXO's DR charts. In fact the only Nikon cameras that share that pattern that I'm aware of are the D3, and it's derivatives the D3s and D700.

So Far as I know, DXO, contrary to their claims, doesn't measure just the sensor, their measurements cover the whole signal processing chain from sensor though amps to ADCs, to whatever the processor does to the values before outputting it as a RAW file. While this is certainly is more for useful for the images you'll see but doesn't really provide a means to say anything about the sensor tech.

So why is Canon doing this? That's a darn good question.

I think Canon and Sony/Nikon have made different trade offs in their sensor design.

The Sony Exmor technology has the analog to digital converters (ADC) on the sensor chip. The Canon sensors take the analog signals off the sensor chip to an ADC in another chip. Very weak analog signals can pick up noise from the circuit boards. This is why the readout noise of the Canon sensors is higher than the Sony Exmor sensors and why the Sony Exmor sensors have better DR and lower deep shadow noise at low ISO.

So why doesn't Canon put the ADC on the sensor chip? There may be some patent issues, but I suspect the real reason is that the Sony Exmor technology has problems with video. The ADC on the sensor chip generate a lot of heat when the sensor is being read quickly, as in high frame rate video. Some Sony DSLR-like cameras that used Exmor have had problems with sensor over heating. Sony has fixed those issues in it most recent cameras. The fix probably involved better cooling for the sensor chip.

All FF DSLR video cameras face the problem that they cannot read all the sensor pixels at 30 fps to do HD video. Nikon is using some kind of pixel skipping to reduce the amount of data that has to be read off the sensor. This means the D800 is not using the whole sensor area, even the whole area within the HD image, to generate its video signal.

Canon has developed on sensor circuits that allow the analog signals of multiple pixels to be mixed for downs sampling to HD video resolution, so they only need to put these down sampled HD video pixels through their off chip ADC at 30 fps.  Canon uses analog signals from the whole sensor area, at least the part that is in the HD aspect image. This allows the Canon sensors to give better high ISO video.

Dan Chung from DPR said that up to ISO 1600 the D800 and 5DIII video noise was similar, but above 1600 the 5DIII clearly had lower noise.

Sony Exmor puts the ADC on the sensor for lower read noise and improved DR. Canon puts analog video down sampling circuits on the sensor for improved high ISO video.

I think Canon thinks that the DR they have now is good enough, and it is for most (but not all) photographic applications. They don't want to trade off the video performance, especially the high ISO video to get better DR.