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Author Topic: Why so much trust in DXO.  (Read 14870 times)

Lyra Video Productions

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Re: Why so much trust in DXO.
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2012, 09:34:32 AM »
I have to be honest.  I didn't really read many of the posts above.

First off--does DXO really matter?  5d3 and d800 are both great cameras, I think we could all agree on that.

2nd, though, I feel like many people may be letting their blind love of Canon get in the way.  If Dxo came out and said the 5d was better, I imagine many canon users would be citing the Dxo scores as a triumph.  Is it possible that in some ways the d800 is actually a better camera?  Maybe it's actually possible--and for $500 cheaper.  I just hope Canon acknowledges the competition and does something about it.  Lower prices/pump up their products more.  Competition, in theory, is good.

dichiaras

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Re: Why so much trust in DXO.
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2012, 09:35:10 AM »
DxO are a software development company that uses extremely precise testing of cameras and lenses as a way to maximise the usefulness of their software (such as DxO Optics Pro) by creating the best possible profiles for each respective model.

It just so happens that they have an interesting by-product of their testing: the test results are a very powerful marketing tool as they attract attention to the DxO brand - and of course they make the most of that by publishing their findings on the web.

Being an independent French company, one can hardly say they are best pals/neighbors with Nikon or Canon or any other manufacturer.
They spend days and days testing each camera body and lens model, using very well-defined test methodology based on scientific principles. They take thousands (yes, THOUSANDS) of photos with each camera body and lens in all possible situations in a controlled lab environment and work only from RAW format so the effects of jpg 'cooking' and other artefacts are not included in their results.

Because their methodology demands precisely controlled and repeatable results, they can't base their findings on 'real world' photography - like going downtown and shooting on the street.

I can't imagine what they would gain by INTENTIONALLY pissing off Canon owners who then are angry at them and refuse to take them or their products seriously.
They can't 'fix' their Canon results to make them look better just to please people like you - they are forced to be objective, otherwise they would be accused of bias and their reputation (and their software) would be destroyed.

Has it occurred to you that Canon (and other manufacturers) themselves never complain or call DxO idiots? Why? Because they know they're not likely to win in the laboratory. They've probably already seen similar results in their own lab tests and know full well what DxO is likely to find.

Canon's decision to release the 5DMkIII with it's present sensor is in the end a marketing decision. And it may turn out to be a bad move.

If you don't like DxO findings, that's your business. If camera and lens manufacturers don't like their findings, that's their business. But all of it generates more traffic for DxO and more exposure for their software products.

Neat and crystal clear assessment of the situation.

victorwol

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Re: Why so much trust in DXO.
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2012, 09:46:03 AM »
Isn't the best camera always the one on your hand at the right moment? All this crazy numbers are just that... Numbers, are not going to make the photographer any better or any richer, you are not going to sell a copy of your photo because was shot with the best sensor, I've seen amazing photos taken with disposable cameras that I wish I've taken with my state of the art equipment....

I undertstand you are spending good amount of money and want the best for it, me too... But isn't this going a bit too far? Just wondering where to draw the line between using a camera to express feelings as a form of art, or just being a technical obsessed photographer.
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fman

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Re: Why so much trust in DXO.
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2012, 09:47:34 AM »
I'm ready to accept DxOMark camera measurement results (their scoring is a mess, let's forget about it).

But anyone caring to explain their 70-200 IS II resolution measurement?

DP photos shown a significant improvement (at least to my eyes), not loss of resolution:

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=103&Camera=453&Sample=0&FLI=4&API=0&LensComp=687&CameraComp=453&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=3&APIComp=0

How comes such a huge gap between measurement results and test photos?

There must be something wrong in their testing methods or I don't understand what resolution means...
I'm really not biased, just trying to understand.

Sallivres

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Re: Why so much trust in DXO.
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2012, 09:53:56 AM »
I think that's why they do this lab tests because the difference is hardly noticeable in real life situation.  Lets say D800 is better than the 5DIII but on a very small margin.

Its like one car is 1s faster than the other in a quarter mile drag race.

bornshooter

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Re: Why so much trust in DXO.
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2012, 09:56:17 AM »
yeah i forgot the 70-200 test the found the version 1 better lol when everyone clearly knows how much of an improvement the version 2 is DXO sucks balls lol

AmbientLight

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Re: Why so much trust in DXO.
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2012, 10:00:10 AM »
Can any one tell me why we are having this discussion? I don't visit DXO for their test results. How about you?

meli

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Re: Why so much trust in DXO.
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2012, 10:03:38 AM »
http://www.techradar.com/reviews/cameras-and-camcorders/cameras/digital-slrs-hybrids/canon-eos-5d-mark-iii-1074186/review/page:5#articleContent

the techradar test:

i thought techradar is a DxO certified lab?   

http://www.techradar.com/news/photography-video-capture/cameras/noise-and-dynamic-range-results-explained-1027588

anyone cares to explain?

that does not explain how techradar and DXO come to different conclusions... given they both use the DXO testing method.

read again, they are a DXO certified lab.... so i guess they use not only the same software but also the same methodology.

I would love to see how they perform the tests in Techradar cause apparently if you'd give 5 monkeys 5 crayons and a paper they would definitely get less random results(and given enough time they would get them right:). for those who havent checked the graphs in the link, here are some exquisite findings:

  • d700 & 5dII have the same snr @ 6400iso as @ 200iso
  • you want the best DR out of a  D700 or a 5DII jpeg? shoot @3200
  • 5DIII jpegs has the same DR @ iso 50 & iso 25600
  • 5DII raws have the same DR all the way from 100 to 6400iso

Its not the first time either, i seem to remember some olympus-related paranoid results some time ago that didnt had any relation with reality either

altenae

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Re: Why so much trust in DXO.
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2012, 10:05:48 AM »
Isn't the best camera always the one on your hand at the right moment? All this crazy numbers are just that... Numbers, are not going to make the photographer any better or any richer, you are not going to sell a copy of your photo because was shot with the best sensor, I've seen amazing photos taken with disposable cameras that I wish I've taken with my state of the art equipment....

I undertstand you are spending good amount of money and want the best for it, me too... But isn't this going a bit too far? Just wondering where to draw the line between using a camera to express feelings as a form of art, or just being a technical obsessed photographer.

+ 10000000000000

Indeed this is what photography is all about.
Couldn't have said this better.


awinphoto

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Re: Why so much trust in DXO.
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2012, 10:12:04 AM »
DxO labs have their methods and their procedures.  Some have said in the past they weighed more into their high ISO scores and now are weighing more into DR... I dont know how true any of it is...  If you take it at face value, nikon has always bested canon in these tests for the last decade or there abouts...  Quite frankly i'd be quite shocked if any Canon camera started testing higher than nikon in the foreseeable future, but it is what it is.  Personally i take all these tests into consideration when it comes into purchasing decisions, but I weigh most my decisions on my eye test and usability.  I had no issues whatsoever with the 5d2 sensor, but it's handling never sat well with me so i opted for the 7D for the longest time because I knew I could always get the shot with the 7D over the 5d2.  IQ on the 7D was marginally acceptable to it worked for me and my clients have always praised my work.  I dont need 14 stops of DR to make my clients happy nor do I wish to undertake extra post processing just to get extra pop.  In the end, the 5d3 is the best of both worlds for me...  Yes there are room to improve, there always is, but as long as the camera doesn't slow me down, i'm cool. 
Canon 5d III, Canon 24-105L, Canon 17-40L, Canon 70-200 F4L, Canon 100L 2.8, 430EX 2's and a lot of bumps along the road to get to where I am.

dswatson83

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Re: Why so much trust in DXO.
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2012, 10:12:27 AM »
My conspiracy theory:
I wonder if DxO is purposely picking the 8MP downsize option to boost Nikon scores. All nikon cameras that receive great scores have all had multiples of 8MP as the sensor output resolution. The 16MP D7000, 16MP D4, and 36MP D800. Since the DR calculation that Dxo uses is not based solely on the ratio of light to dark but only those values where a signal to noise ratio is below 0dB. I wonder if by perfectly dividing those numbers they are able to achieve a lower noise floor in the shadows enabling larger dynamic range numbers on paper. Notice the random Pentax K5 extremely awesome DR rating also contains a 16MP sensor. I also find it interesting that the $800 16MP Nikon D5100 has an equal DR to the Phase One...hmmmmmm. The Sony NEX-7 with its 24MP sensor (multiple of 8) and the 24MP D3x, 24MP Sony A580,  also have top spots to both $40,000 medium format cameras known their dynamic range and all Canon bodies.

Can it really be a coincidence that EVERY top body in DR happens to have a MP count that is a multiple of the 8MP that DxO mysteriously uses for all of its calculations????
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Camera-Sensor-Ratings/(type)/usecase_landscape

AmbientLight

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Re: Why so much trust in DXO.
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2012, 10:24:16 AM »
This is certainly not a conspiracy, but DXO is simply performing their tests to give you the end results shown. You cannot expect them to spend a lot of effort in testing without a solid business reason being involved somewhere.

Canon-F1

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Re: Why so much trust in DXO.
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2012, 10:53:13 AM »
I'm ready to accept DxOMark camera measurement results (their scoring is a mess, let's forget about it).

But anyone caring to explain their 70-200 IS II resolution measurement?

the nikon fanboy who works for DXO is hand selecting bad canon lenses.  :)
it´s hard to find a bad exemplar but maybe he dropped it a few times.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 10:54:44 AM by Canon-F1 »
6D, 5D MK2, 7D, 550D... a lot of Glass.

awinphoto

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Re: Why so much trust in DXO.
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2012, 11:27:18 AM »
I'm ready to accept DxOMark camera measurement results (their scoring is a mess, let's forget about it).

But anyone caring to explain their 70-200 IS II resolution measurement?

the nikon fanboy who works for DXO is hand selecting bad canon lenses.  :)
it´s hard to find a bad exemplar but maybe he dropped it a few times.

I KNEW it!  I say lets start a petition to require craig to sit in on the tests to verify the results are accurate!  haha. 
Canon 5d III, Canon 24-105L, Canon 17-40L, Canon 70-200 F4L, Canon 100L 2.8, 430EX 2's and a lot of bumps along the road to get to where I am.

pdirestajr

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Re: Why so much trust in DXO.
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2012, 11:34:16 AM »
Isn't the sensor just a small part of the whole package? Even IF the Nikon/ Sony sensor is lab tested better, who cares?

So the Nikon sensor is better. I like Canon's design, ergonomics, lenses, etc...

If you don't like the modern day sensors, go buy an EOS 1V with an interchangeable sensor (fuji, kodak & ilford have been making some nice ones for generations)- That camera is a beast!

I have a 5D mkii on the way & couldn't be more excited. I'm gonna take pictures with that camera, and I will have the lens cap off and I won't be shooting test charts or brick walls.
7D | 5DII | EOS-3 | Nikon F3 | Mamiya 645 Pro-TL