July 30, 2014, 10:03:58 PM

Poll

What will be next Canon move in the area of their sensor department?

They don't care and think 5d3 sensor is fine
They will try to get next sensors from Sony as Nikon did
They will try to get sensors from another company than Sony because of some Nikon exclusive agreements
They will work harder to get better results and follow the path they do now
They will run some marketing campaign to defend the results achieved with current 5d3 sensor
They will run some marketing campaign admitting to mistake and offer some solution for future.
They will care a S___ and listen to pros who actually use cameras out in the field.

Author Topic: Next Canon step in the matter of their sensors  (Read 11117 times)

lol

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Re: Next Canon step in the matter of their sensors
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2012, 12:23:38 PM »
Um...what? On a 47.6mp FF sensor (which would be the equivalent pixel density of an 18mp APS-C), if you crop the 18mp APS-C sized center of the frame...you would get the exact same effective focal length...160-640. Are you thinking about the 200-400mm with 1.4x TC? If so, that would be 320-640 effective @ APS-C crop. I'm curious where you got 400-640mm effective...
I was saying you'd get 46MP at up to 400mm, but to effectively go beyond 400mm you can crop. Setting the floor at 18MP, you reach the same 18MP at 640mm effective as with 7D.

So why do people bother paying thousands for EF 400 L's and above if they could simply buy 1 camera and crop in? Because of quality.  I would rather have Canon get the quality right first at 22.3. I have a 41mp medium format if I want bigger, but then medium format also has a different quality to it that the D800 can't fully replicate.  If you need to get closer, GET closer.  Stop decreasing you IQ by cropping in in post.
If I could get closer, I would be able to walk on water and fly. As far as I know, I am not related to Superman, so that is not an option. Sure, I'd love the massive telephotos too. If I had the cash, I'd get them, as well as an entourage to help carry them around. Medium format is about the worst camera for my needs. For less demanding uses, I have the 5D2 at half the price of the 5D3, but neither come close to the 7D in this application. And that is the big point here. I don't care if the kit does better in another application. I'm concerned with what it does for me. Do not try to impose a different set of irrelevant criteria to my needs.

Besides, I'm not decreasing my IQ from my benchmark, which is the 7D. Having a high MP will allow cropping to that when necessary, and when not, a significant resolution increase. Put simply, if Canon had released a 5D3 with a sensor like the D800 in it, I'd have one in my kit bag right now.
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Re: Next Canon step in the matter of their sensors
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2012, 12:23:38 PM »

altenae

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Re: Next Canon step in the matter of their sensors
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2012, 12:32:49 PM »
Um...what? On a 47.6mp FF sensor (which would be the equivalent pixel density of an 18mp APS-C), if you crop the 18mp APS-C sized center of the frame...you would get the exact same effective focal length...160-640. Are you thinking about the 200-400mm with 1.4x TC? If so, that would be 320-640 effective @ APS-C crop. I'm curious where you got 400-640mm effective...
I was saying you'd get 46MP at up to 400mm, but to effectively go beyond 400mm you can crop. Setting the floor at 18MP, you reach the same 18MP at 640mm effective as with 7D.

So why do people bother paying thousands for EF 400 L's and above if they could simply buy 1 camera and crop in? Because of quality.  I would rather have Canon get the quality right first at 22.3. I have a 41mp medium format if I want bigger, but then medium format also has a different quality to it that the D800 can't fully replicate.  If you need to get closer, GET closer.  Stop decreasing you IQ by cropping in in post.
If I could get closer, I would be able to walk on water and fly. As far as I know, I am not related to Superman, so that is not an option. Sure, I'd love the massive telephotos too. If I had the cash, I'd get them, as well as an entourage to help carry them around. Medium format is about the worst camera for my needs. For less demanding uses, I have the 5D2 at half the price of the 5D3, but neither come close to the 7D in this application. And that is the big point here. I don't care if the kit does better in another application. I'm concerned with what it does for me. Do not try to impose a different set of irrelevant criteria to my needs.

Besides, I'm not decreasing my IQ from my benchmark, which is the 7D. Having a high MP will allow cropping to that when necessary, and when not, a significant resolution increase. Put simply, if Canon had released a 5D3 with a sensor like the D800 in it, I'd have one in my kit bag right now.

Getting the reach with good lenses is better then crop in most circumstances.

jrista

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Re: Next Canon step in the matter of their sensors
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2012, 01:58:09 PM »
Um...what? On a 47.6mp FF sensor (which would be the equivalent pixel density of an 18mp APS-C), if you crop the 18mp APS-C sized center of the frame...you would get the exact same effective focal length...160-640. Are you thinking about the 200-400mm with 1.4x TC? If so, that would be 320-640 effective @ APS-C crop. I'm curious where you got 400-640mm effective...
I was saying you'd get 46MP at up to 400mm, but to effectively go beyond 400mm you can crop. Setting the floor at 18MP, you reach the same 18MP at 640mm effective as with 7D.

So why do people bother paying thousands for EF 400 L's and above if they could simply buy 1 camera and crop in? Because of quality.  I would rather have Canon get the quality right first at 22.3. I have a 41mp medium format if I want bigger, but then medium format also has a different quality to it that the D800 can't fully replicate.  If you need to get closer, GET closer.  Stop decreasing you IQ by cropping in in post.
If I could get closer, I would be able to walk on water and fly. As far as I know, I am not related to Superman, so that is not an option. Sure, I'd love the massive telephotos too. If I had the cash, I'd get them, as well as an entourage to help carry them around. Medium format is about the worst camera for my needs. For less demanding uses, I have the 5D2 at half the price of the 5D3, but neither come close to the 7D in this application. And that is the big point here. I don't care if the kit does better in another application. I'm concerned with what it does for me. Do not try to impose a different set of irrelevant criteria to my needs.

Besides, I'm not decreasing my IQ from my benchmark, which is the 7D. Having a high MP will allow cropping to that when necessary, and when not, a significant resolution increase. Put simply, if Canon had released a 5D3 with a sensor like the D800 in it, I'd have one in my kit bag right now.

Getting the reach with good lenses is better then crop in most circumstances.

+1 Definitely.
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marcust

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Re: Next Canon step in the matter of their sensors
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2012, 02:43:53 PM »
they will just quit makeing still cameras, going to video only,,,,,,,,,

lol

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Re: Next Canon step in the matter of their sensors
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2012, 02:59:02 PM »
Getting the reach with good lenses is better then crop in most circumstances.
To the point when they either become too heavy or too expensive they are no longer an option. Optimise the whole system.
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briansquibb

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Re: Next Canon step in the matter of their sensors
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2012, 03:10:05 PM »
In what real-world situation does the 5DIII have insufficient image quality for the job but the D800 does have sufficient IQ? That is, when would you put down the 5DIII and pick up the D800 instead of a medium format kit?


e.g. using the 100-400L as an example.
On 7D: 160-640mm equivalent at 18MP
On hypothetical 46MP full frame sensor: 100-400mm at 46MP, 400-640mm effective at >18MP by cropping.

Increased resolution over most of the range, while maintaining the total reach, and more effective zoom range compared to 7D.

So why do people bother paying thousands for EF 400 L's and above if they could simply buy 1 camera and crop in? Because of quality.  I would rather have Canon get the quality right first at 22.3. I have a 41mp medium format if I want bigger, but then medium format also has a different quality to it that the D800 can't fully replicate.  If you need to get closer, GET closer.  Stop decreasing you IQ by cropping in in post.

That is why I got the 600 as well. The 400 f/2.8 makes a good portrait lens on a ff too :D

JR

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Re: Next Canon step in the matter of their sensors
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2012, 03:32:02 PM »
They will never admit their new sensor is not good.  Especially with another new sensor coming into the 1dx and 1dc!!!!

If this ultimately hurt their sale and they start loosing ground to nikon and sony, they will react, if not, they wont care!
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Re: Next Canon step in the matter of their sensors
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2012, 03:32:02 PM »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Next Canon step in the matter of their sensors
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2012, 04:46:42 PM »
or they will just post a link to the techradar test with a big question mark ?

and ask how two DxO test can have different results.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=5868.0


none of the techradar results make much sense at all

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Next Canon step in the matter of their sensors
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2012, 04:49:32 PM »
Here's something I'd generally be interested in -- but, please, only reply if you have real-world experience, and not if you're only projecting your expectations from interpretations of an unfocused high-ISO macro shot of the inside of soWmebody's lenscap you saw posted on the 'Net.

In what real-world situation does the 5DIII have insufficient image quality for the job but the D800 does have sufficient IQ? That is, when would you put down the 5DIII and pick up the D800 instead of a medium format kit?

I personally can't think of any.

Cheers,

b&

shooting distant birds (high density sensor puts more pixels per duck)

for making 13x19" or larger prints

shooting scenes with lots of dynamic range (IMO a huge difference here, this is the biggest difference)

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Next Canon step in the matter of their sensors
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2012, 04:52:02 PM »


There is so much more to an improvement over the mark II then only the sensor and the BS DXO numbers.



http://www.fredmiranda.com/5DIII-D800/index_controlled-tests.html
DxO is BS and has no bearing on reality??


that said of course there are huge improvements over the mark2 other than the sensor, yes

Heidrun

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Re: Next Canon step in the matter of their sensors
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2012, 05:02:10 PM »
How about a 36x36 sensor.
I think that this is the ideal sensor size

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Re: Next Canon step in the matter of their sensors
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2012, 05:12:00 PM »
They will never admit their new sensor is not good.  Especially with another new sensor coming into the 1dx and 1dc!!!!

If this ultimately hurt their sale and they start loosing ground to nikon and sony, they will react, if not, they wont care!

Sales numbers seem to be indeed the best indicator of marketing efficiency and technical effort.
Thanks all for the participation in this survey as far.

I'm really interested in your opinion, not only what you think about 5d3, but also and even more, what do you think, that Canon really thinks about it. Critics suggested, that Canon has hurried up with this release and it was marketing pressure. Enthusiasts emphasize (and here is more of them), that this is a good product fullfilling their expectations.

If Canon decided to show up this release under pressure only, we could maybe sooner than later see it's successor or rather something between 5d3 and 1dx like Craig suggested. If Canon is happy with 5d3 then most probably things would go as usual (I'm convinced that it's too early to speculate before 1dx was sent to public and tested in the field).
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well_dunno

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Re: Next Canon step in the matter of their sensors
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2012, 06:47:59 PM »
They will never admit their new sensor is not good.  Especially with another new sensor coming into the 1dx and 1dc!!!!

If this ultimately hurt their sale and they start loosing ground to nikon and sony, they will react, if not, they wont care!

I could not agree more!..

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Re: Next Canon step in the matter of their sensors
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2012, 06:47:59 PM »

Aglet

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Re: Next Canon step in the matter of their sensors
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2012, 07:24:14 PM »
Canon is likely quite happy with the performance of the 5D3; it's selling like crack, it actually does do a lot of things considerably better than the 5D2, at least for most of the crowd who asked for those improvements.

I sure hope they are listening to all the forum griping tho, as well as those of us who've also bothered to let them know directly, that we expected better overall sensor performance from them, especially at the low ISO end.

I'm very curious to see how the 1DX performs, at BOTH ends of the ISO range.  There'd better be some seriously clean low ISO performance with sensor read noise as low as what the competitors are achieving.
If they can't pull it off, it will hurt their marketing in the longer term, especially if they can't compete with the likes of the D800/D4/D7000/D5100/D3200/K5.
After decades of being an all-Canon gig I've started to explore what the competition has to offer, and some of it's mighty tantalizing. So much so I've started to collect some Nikon gear and even the Pentax K5 is of some interest for a few of its unique features.

I really think Canon needs to look at what the competition has brought to the market and pay attention to its loyal customers who'd like some of the same without having to buy it from the competition.

There's one way to help them do that.... TELL THEM.

TrumpetPower!

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Re: Next Canon step in the matter of their sensors
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2012, 07:32:20 PM »
Here's something I'd generally be interested in -- but, please, only reply if you have real-world experience, and not if you're only projecting your expectations from interpretations of an unfocused high-ISO macro shot of the inside of soWmebody's lenscap you saw posted on the 'Net.

In what real-world situation does the 5DIII have insufficient image quality for the job but the D800 does have sufficient IQ? That is, when would you put down the 5DIII and pick up the D800 instead of a medium format kit?

I personally can't think of any.

Cheers,

b&

Landscapes...in a heartbeat! The average sunset landscape can have a DR well above 12 stops, even above 14 stops. The more DR the better for landscape shots. Not that you will necessarily use all of it in the final product, but that you can always use the leeway when it comes to landscape shots. Being able to do even a touch of shadow recovery where necessary without encountering the color-blotched noise-infested pattern-ridden shadows that Canon is well-known for would be a godsend. Not to mention the improved sharpness on the D800e.

I'm not suggesting that improvements are unwelcome or claiming that the D800 doesn't hold a slight edge in certain areas.

But are you really shooting landscapes in situations where you'd be able to tell the difference in the final print between the 5DIII and the D800, short of examining them with a loupe?

And if your landscapes won't sell with the 5DIII, would you really be able to sell them with the D800 instead?

That's my point. If the 5DIII isn't good enough, the marginal improvement the D800 might be able to offer really isn't going to do the trick, either, even if it's better. If you can't cut the branch with a hunting knife, a Bowie knife isn't going to cut it either; you need a saw or a hatchet.

shooting distant birds (high density sensor puts more pixels per duck)

Does the extra density, combined with noise characteristics and AF performance / frames per second of the D800 really result in a better print once both have been cropped, even if you've got more PPD from the D800?

Distance-limited telephoto (or macro) shooting is about the only scenario I can think of where the difference might be discernible, but I'm still skeptical about whether or not there'll be a real-world difference in prints based on sensor characteristics alone. I'm even more skeptical that the non-sensor bits of the D800 will let it make as good a use of its sensor as the 5DIII will of its.

Quote
for making 13x19" or larger prints

Eh, 13" x 19" is puny. If you're buying these cameras to print at 13" x 19", you've wasted your money.

I'll buy a cup of coffee for anybody who can show me side-by-side 24" x 36" prints made from a 5DIII and a D800 that, when made from the same tripod in the same studio and independently processed by the same (competent) person to maximize final print quality (not just the same recipe applied to both) for each which can be readily distinguished at standard viewing distances.

I can maybe see the D800 pulling away at 36" x 54", but still not at standard viewing distances. And, once again, if your bread and butter is 36" x 54" prints (or bigger) and the 5DIII format won't get you the gigs, you need medium format, not the D800.

Quote
shooting scenes with lots of dynamic range (IMO a huge difference here, this is the biggest difference)

In what real-world situation does the 5DIII have insufficient DR but the D800 does where you wouldn't be doing multiple exposures for HDR in the first place? And let's not forget that the 5DIII can do 6 FPS fire-and-forget several-shot brackets with a just couple button presses.

Once again, as I see it, if the 5DIII is inadequate, the answer isn't the D800 but something else entirely (in this case, a different technique).

Cheers,

b&

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Re: Next Canon step in the matter of their sensors
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2012, 07:32:20 PM »