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Author Topic: 5D3 and Canon's Comeuppance  (Read 14977 times)

V8Beast

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Re: 5D3 and Canon's Comeuppance
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2012, 01:44:01 AM »
I'm sorry, though, the d800 is not a gimmick. I'm getting some superb shots. It's NOT just the megapixels. I'm getting amazing colors and really clean detail. This was a machine made by a company that was hungry.

You're right, Nikon is hungry. They've been hungry ever since Canon stomped them so badly at the dawn of the digital era. They lost a ton of market share back then, and as underdogs, they've been pushing hard to catch up. That's the nature of being the underdog. Bold situations call for bold solutions, and Nikon's products from the last 5 years proves this.

Many have accused Canon of becoming complacent. Maybe there's some truth to this, but the nature of being #1 is that it's difficult to gauge how hard you have to push the envelope to stay on top. It doesn't make it OK to lose sight of the market, but that's just the way things go.

Personally, I don't think there's as large of a gap as people suggest when comparing Nikon and Canon bodies. For your needs, the D800 is the better camera than the 5DIII, but for others, the Canon is a more well-rounded machine. I'm one of those guys that preferred the D700 over the 5DII, so the 5DIII is precisely the type of camera I wanted Canon to build. If Canon is intentionally crippling their cameras, as people suggest, they will lose market share and then get serious about earning it back. It's a pissing match all consumers benefit from.

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Re: 5D3 and Canon's Comeuppance
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2012, 01:44:01 AM »

Tcapp

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Re: 5D3 and Canon's Comeuppance
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2012, 02:45:13 AM »
I'm sorry, though, the d800 is not a gimmick. I'm getting some superb shots. It's NOT just the megapixels. I'm getting amazing colors and really clean detail. This was a machine made by a company that was hungry.

You're right, Nikon is hungry. They've been hungry ever since Canon stomped them so badly at the dawn of the digital era. They lost a ton of market share back then, and as underdogs, they've been pushing hard to catch up. That's the nature of being the underdog. Bold situations call for bold solutions, and Nikon's products from the last 5 years proves this.

Many have accused Canon of becoming complacent. Maybe there's some truth to this, but the nature of being #1 is that it's difficult to gauge how hard you have to push the envelope to stay on top. It doesn't make it OK to lose sight of the market, but that's just the way things go.

Personally, I don't think there's as large of a gap as people suggest when comparing Nikon and Canon bodies. For your needs, the D800 is the better camera than the 5DIII, but for others, the Canon is a more well-rounded machine. I'm one of those guys that preferred the D700 over the 5DII, so the 5DIII is precisely the type of camera I wanted Canon to build. If Canon is intentionally crippling their cameras, as people suggest, they will lose market share and then get serious about earning it back. It's a pissing match all consumers benefit from.

Yup.

And where do you think we will be in 20 years?

Nikon will have the "best" camera for a while, then Canon will. It will go back and forth till in 20 years both sides are putting out a 100+ MP mirror less camera with a medium format sensor in a dslr sized camera that has clean 200k iso, 4k video at 120 fps, 15 fps for stills, more dynamic range than the human eye, built in GPS, wifi, and an autofocus system with as many focus points as there are pixles. The camera will cost around 30k thanks to inflation.

I guess what I'm getting at is who really cares if one side or the other has the best camera right this second? Sit back and enjoy this ride into the future! Look at how far we have come since the first digital camera, and just imagine how far we will be able to go in the future!
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Martin

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Re: 5D3 and Canon's Comeuppance
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2012, 03:03:31 AM »
Quote
I haven't been the only one who has made the observation that Canon seems more intent upon maximizing profit and protecting market segments instead of making the most kick-ass camera that it can. There always seems to be something purposefully gimped or a decision that was made by the marketing department instead of the engineers. I own a 5D3 and a d800 and it really seems to me that the folks at Nikon really tried harder. I originally bought the d800 for a specific purpose but now I find myself using it with a nice prime that I also bought. I really don't get the feeling using it that anyone at Nikon said "we better not do X because it'll cut into our sales of Y." My only major complaint is that it has a slow FPS, but then again it's moving massive files around.

Using my 5D3 I don't get the impression that Canon tried as hard as it might have. It really reminds me of American car makers back in the day trying to focus as much as possible on maximizing profits and not making the best cars that it could. We all know how well that went.

So anyway, Canon. Try harder. You deserve all the sh*t people are giving you. The 5D3 is a solid machine, but it's not great. There were so many missed opportunities. You probably could have made something very similar in 2010 but didn't. Try to build the best stuff you can and price it aggressively. Thanks.

I have exactly the same feeling.
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moreorless

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Re: 5D3 and Canon's Comeuppance
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2012, 03:28:41 AM »
another observation I have on this topic is that Nikon stayed focus on their core segment:  still photographer and video comes as a bonus, but because they play catch up on the video side they did not hold out.

On the other hand I feel Canon is getting distracted by their desire to bridge the DSLR into the video market.  This is all noble, but could be dangerous in the long run if they continue to cripple their model because they need to keep certain feature for other model in the line up...just a thought...

The 5D mk3 doesnt looked "crippled" to me, rather I think that Canon were looking to exploit the same kind of convergence of tech as live view and video offered on the 5D mk2. 22 MP seems to offer the 5Dmk3 vastly better video ISO performance than the D800(I'd guess a bigger issue for video than stills giving that long exposures arent an option) than the D800 but it also allows them to offer 6 fps.

To me it looks as if Canon and Nikon has specifically looked to go after what they viewed as weaknesses in there previous generation, Nikon a cheaper high MP body and Canon a good all rounder. I'm guessing that alot of amatures who want high MP bought a 5D mk2 fairly recently aswell when prices dropped while the earlier sales were made up of pro's who really wanted 5D mk3 specs.

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Re: 5D3 and Canon's Comeuppance
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2012, 04:05:35 AM »
another observation I have on this topic is that Nikon stayed focus on their core segment:  still photographer and video comes as a bonus, but because they play catch up on the video side they did not hold out.

On the other hand I feel Canon is getting distracted by their desire to bridge the DSLR into the video market.  This is all noble, but could be dangerous in the long run if they continue to cripple their model because they need to keep certain feature for other model in the line up...just a thought...

The 5D mk3 doesnt looked "crippled" to me, rather I think that Canon were looking to exploit the same kind of convergence of tech as live view and video offered on the 5D mk2. 22 MP seems to offer the 5Dmk3 vastly better video ISO performance than the D800(I'd guess a bigger issue for video than stills giving that long exposures arent an option) than the D800 but it also allows them to offer 6 fps.

To me it looks as if Canon and Nikon has specifically looked to go after what they viewed as weaknesses in there previous generation, Nikon a cheaper high MP body and Canon a good all rounder. I'm guessing that alot of amatures who want high MP bought a 5D mk2 fairly recently aswell when prices dropped while the earlier sales were made up of pro's who really wanted 5D mk3 specs.

This is a 5D3 not a series 1.

A 22mp 1Dx would be VERY interesting and give some credibility to the statement that it was a merger of the 1D and 1Ds  ranges

It will be interesting to see if the tone of the posts on this forum changes from doom and gloom to glee when the 1DX gets to the market. Personally I doubt it as everyone seems to be looking for a spec of dust on the fender and if they find it no doubt there will be a class suit raised :(

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Re: 5D3 and Canon's Comeuppance
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2012, 06:33:39 AM »
On the other hand I feel Canon is getting distracted by their desire to bridge the DSLR into the video market.  This is all noble, but could be dangerous in the long run if they continue to cripple their model because they need to keep certain feature for other model in the line up...just a thought...

+1
This is a road they've chosen to increase sales, of course.  and why not?
But, they do seem to have languished behind other Mfr's who have kept still image quality as their top priority. That and the technical requirements for doing video seem to be compromizing still IQ at a hardware level.

for now it does seem like this.  Maybe when the 1dx comes out for real we will change our mind but does not change the facts for the other bodies indeed...
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Re: 5D3 and Canon's Comeuppance
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2012, 06:37:00 AM »
Well, I want to buy a Bentley GT for 30K.

Not at all.  If you read the original post price is not the issue here.  The issue is Canon is doing thing in vacuum and are more concerned about their product proliferation and different ion rather then competition or coming with a killer package.  Their pursuit for maximizing profit through marginal upgrades is getting obvious.  Ok, maybe marginal is not the right word here but you get the idea...not saying the mkiii is bad here guys,it just seem Nikon tried harder to come out with a WOW product.
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Re: 5D3 and Canon's Comeuppance
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2012, 06:37:00 AM »

JR

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Re: 5D3 and Canon's Comeuppance
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2012, 06:43:27 AM »

The 5D mk3 doesnt looked "crippled" to me, rather I think that Canon were looking to exploit the same kind of convergence of tech as live view and video offered on the 5D mk2. 22 MP seems to offer the 5Dmk3 vastly better video ISO performance than the D800(I'd guess a bigger issue for video than stills giving that long exposures arent an option) than the D800 but it also allows them to offer 6 fps.

To me it looks as if Canon and Nikon has specifically looked to go after what they viewed as weaknesses in there previous generation, Nikon a cheaper high MP body and Canon a good all rounder. I'm guessing that alot of amatures who want high MP bought a 5D mk2 fairly recently aswell when prices dropped while the earlier sales were made up of pro's who really wanted 5D mk3 specs.

...but DxO said that ISO performance is better with the D800  :o

[sarcasm]   :o

lol
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Re: 5D3 and Canon's Comeuppance
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2012, 06:45:19 AM »
another observation I have on this topic is that Nikon stayed focus on their core segment:  still photographer and video comes as a bonus, but because they play catch up on the video side they did not hold out.

On the other hand I feel Canon is getting distracted by their desire to bridge the DSLR into the video market.  This is all noble, but could be dangerous in the long run if they continue to cripple their model because they need to keep certain feature for other model in the line up...just a thought...

The 5D mk3 doesnt looked "crippled" to me, rather I think that Canon were looking to exploit the same kind of convergence of tech as live view and video offered on the 5D mk2. 22 MP seems to offer the 5Dmk3 vastly better video ISO performance than the D800(I'd guess a bigger issue for video than stills giving that long exposures arent an option) than the D800 but it also allows them to offer 6 fps.

To me it looks as if Canon and Nikon has specifically looked to go after what they viewed as weaknesses in there previous generation, Nikon a cheaper high MP body and Canon a good all rounder. I'm guessing that alot of amatures who want high MP bought a 5D mk2 fairly recently aswell when prices dropped while the earlier sales were made up of pro's who really wanted 5D mk3 specs.

This is a 5D3 not a series 1.

A 22mp 1Dx would be VERY interesting and give some credibility to the statement that it was a merger of the 1D and 1Ds  ranges

It will be interesting to see if the tone of the posts on this forum changes from doom and gloom to glee when the 1DX gets to the market. Personally I doubt it as everyone seems to be looking for a spec of dust on the fender and if they find it no doubt there will be a class suit raised :(

Well I hope you are right Brian.  I can't wait to see how the 1DX perform.  I really hope it proves us all wrong  ;D
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altenae

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Re: 5D3 and Canon's Comeuppance
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2012, 08:29:01 AM »
Well, I want to buy a Bentley GT for 30K.


Not at all.  If you read the original post price is not the issue here.  The issue is Canon is doing thing in vacuum and are more concerned about their product proliferation and different ion rather then competition or coming with a killer package.  Their pursuit for maximizing profit through marginal upgrades is getting obvious.  Ok, maybe marginal is not the right word here but you get the idea...not saying the mkiii is bad here guys,it just seem Nikon tried harder to come out with a WOW product.


Did Nikon try harder ?
Or did sony tried harder.

Without the D800 the 5D mark iii would be top notch.

It still is, except for the DR which is less then the D800.
But other things from the 5D rocks.

I think everything is blown out of proportion on many forums.

Well I am glad I am off for a 2 week wildlife trip.
And yes with my poor Canon stuff.

I think we should be realistic and stop whining.
Or be a man and buy the D800 and see if this will make your images any better.

The 5D mark III is a superb allround DSLR with a superb AF.

Grow up. The difference is not that big in real word.
And the tools from Canon and Nikon are more then most of us will ever use or need.


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« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 08:32:26 AM by altenae »

Stu_bert

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Re: 5D3 and Canon's Comeuppance
« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2012, 08:50:25 AM »
Gear is gear. It's normal for everyone to want more for less/same, unless you work for Canon or Nikon :-)

Are Canon perhaps pushing the envelope of reasonable pricing? Yup. How much did the flooding & earthquake cost them? Dunno. Why are they charging more than Nikon? Numerous factors I am sure, many of which have been floated here.

Should we continue to berate Canon? Well only if it is measured complaints. If anyone from Canon does read this site, if it becomes rant/vent central then I think they will frequent it less. I certainly would. Will pricing on the Canon lenses & bodies come down? History shows it should, so if you don't have a burning need then wait. I'm still happy with my kit and will wait out 2012 to decide and just hope to improve my photography :-)

To the original OP - how much are you putting down the better photography to the 200-400mm VR and how much to the D800? I know of a few photographers who have switched to Nikon specifically for the 200-400mm, and although Canon have one on the horizon, I suspect many people here will be more interested in a 100-400mm MK II (due to pricing)....

So, how much is the AF of the D800 better than the 1D MK IV for you, and how much is the 200-400mm giving you better flexibility to catch the photos you desire? Comparing the 400mm vs the 200-400mm is frankly unfair given all the variables. D800 better resolution? Sure, the 1D has an effective 27MP to a FF, so the 36 of the D800 will certainly help some in terms of cropping...

If you have any examples of direct comparison, that would be great...

Finally, I personally like the fact that I can shoot stills for 95% of the time, but can use the same glass on the same body, flip a switch and take some video. When I travel, my bag is full and I even try to avoid taking my 20D IR now just to avoid 2 sets of batteries & chargers. All my critical gear is in hand luggage which restricts me to those airlines that allow 15+ KG of kit. Adding a separate Video Camera even if it can take my EF lenses is just more kit. Appreciate it is horses for courses...
If life is all about what you do in the time that you have, then photography is about the pictures you take not the kit that took it. Still it's fun to talk about the kit, present or future :)

jrista

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Re: 5D3 and Canon's Comeuppance
« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2012, 09:25:04 AM »
..., but I'm selling my 1D4 and 400/2.8.

How much? I might be willing to take that off your hands if its reasonable. ;)
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Re: 5D3 and Canon's Comeuppance
« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2012, 09:28:59 AM »
TrumpetPower! - are you saying Canon has better lenses than say, Nikon? Would not say that that. Both brands, including Sigma and Tamron have good lenses.  Zeiss are the masters of all glass!

I wouldn't say that at all. Zeiss has a reputation spanning decades as being the masters of glass, but both Nikon and Canon today, and in some cases Sigma, take the crown and are well ahead of Zeiss for commonly used lenses. In particular, Canon and Nikon take the crown hands down on their lens coating, which is a nanocoating now, far, far superior to a multicoating (which is still what Zeiss uses...their T* coating.) As such, Nikon and Canon lenses experience hardly any flare and ghosting, even in the worst of the worst situations. That improves microcontrast, and therefor sharpness...and Canon's latest lenses are truly second to nothing these days (their MTF's are approaching perfection even near the edges now.)
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Re: 5D3 and Canon's Comeuppance
« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2012, 09:28:59 AM »

jrista

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Re: 5D3 and Canon's Comeuppance
« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2012, 09:34:03 AM »
I'm sorry, though, the d800 is not a gimmick. I'm getting some superb shots. It's NOT just the megapixels. I'm getting amazing colors and really clean detail. This was a machine made by a company that was hungry.

You're right, Nikon is hungry. They've been hungry ever since Canon stomped them so badly at the dawn of the digital era. They lost a ton of market share back then, and as underdogs, they've been pushing hard to catch up. That's the nature of being the underdog. Bold situations call for bold solutions, and Nikon's products from the last 5 years proves this.

Many have accused Canon of becoming complacent. Maybe there's some truth to this, but the nature of being #1 is that it's difficult to gauge how hard you have to push the envelope to stay on top. It doesn't make it OK to lose sight of the market, but that's just the way things go.

Personally, I don't think there's as large of a gap as people suggest when comparing Nikon and Canon bodies. For your needs, the D800 is the better camera than the 5DIII, but for others, the Canon is a more well-rounded machine. I'm one of those guys that preferred the D700 over the 5DII, so the 5DIII is precisely the type of camera I wanted Canon to build. If Canon is intentionally crippling their cameras, as people suggest, they will lose market share and then get serious about earning it back. It's a pissing match all consumers benefit from.

+1 Well said!
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Re: 5D3 and Canon's Comeuppance
« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2012, 10:01:10 AM »
If you have any examples of direct comparison, that would be great...
Direct comparisons? You mean shoot this scene, put the one camera down, shoot the same scene with a different camera? I'm afraid that would be impossible. If you don't want direct comparisons, the internet is littered with shots from a 1D4/400mm combination sports shots and there are a number on my web site.

And sure, I'm willing to admit that part of my glee is due to the lens, but I also temporarily shot with a d7000 and wasn't nearly as smitten. I was going to get a D4, but full frame 16.2MP just wasn't going to cut it. I used to shoot important events with a 1D4/400 on a tripod and a 7D/70-200 f2.8 II on my shoulder for when the action got close. Now I'm hand-holding everything with just one camera and getting great shots.

Canon doesn't really have an answer. I have explained this before, so if you've read it, move along. There's the vapor-lens 200-400/f4 +1.4x that I had been waiting on for the better part of 3 years, but the pricing on that looks to be more than what I paid for the d800 and the 200-400/f4 lens. Then what would I put that lens on? A $3500 5D3? That has no advantages. A 1Dx? I suppose that might be killer, but to get the reach of the d800 I have to drop in the 1.4x and then I'm at f5.6. And then there's the small matter of the $6800 price tag of the camera. The MSRP of the Canon 200-400 + 1Dx looks to be approaching $19,000. I paid almost exactly half that. Half!!

Plus this lens still doesn't exist... and neither does the camera. Some will say "nobody pays full MSRP for lenses." Well, yes they do. In the first year or so when they come out, the big lenses sell at full price, if you can even find them. The 400/2.8 II is still $11,500 at B&H and Adorama, despite being out for some time. It may come down in a while but how long do I wait. Until 2014?

I'm not crazy. I'm not needlessly berating Canon with my shrill hysterics. Others will do what I have done. Many others.

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Re: 5D3 and Canon's Comeuppance
« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2012, 10:01:10 AM »