The Last Generation of the Crop Sensor Cameras

[unfocused]

Here we go again.

Eventually all DSLRs will be obsolete. And, eventually, we will all be dead.

In the meantime, these proclamations about the "death" of one particular format are beyond silly. But, just for the sake of argument, what sign is there of any decline in the APS-C format?

• Is it that the price of a full frame camera is now more that twice the cost of a comparably equipped APS-C camera?
  
• Is it that every manufacturer has now settled on two sensor formats for enthusiast and professional level cameras? (Canon dumping the 1.3 format from the DSLR lineup and other manufacturers migrating to APS-C for their top-end mirror less models, as in the Fuji X-Pro 1)
  
• Is it that after the initial excitement has worn off, the top 20 Amazon DSLR best sellers currently list 16 APS-C cameras and only four full-frame cameras?
• Is it that in a world where the vast majority of images will never be viewed at more than 72 dpi on computer screens and tablet devices, the differences between APS-C and Full Frame are detectable only at the highest ISO ranges, massive print sizes or by zooming in on an image on a computer screen?

Please, I know all the 5DIII buyers have to justify their purchases to themselves. But if you are going to make "proclamations" like this, how about offering some real world evidence of your claims? Is all this just based on some vague fear that the market cannot support two different formats and full frame shooters are afraid to be the ones who bet on Betamax? Stop worrying about it. There is plenty of evidence the market is big enough for both formats and even if full frame does die out, it will still be around for quite some time.

[awinphoto]

Here we go again.

Eventually all DSLRs will be obsolete. And, eventually, we will all be dead.

In the meantime, these proclamations about the "death" of one particular format are beyond silly. But, just for the sake of argument, what sign is there of any decline in the APS-C format?

• Is it that the price of a full frame camera is now more that twice the cost of a comparably equipped APS-C camera?
  
• Is it that every manufacturer has now settled on two sensor formats for enthusiast and professional level cameras? (Canon dumping the 1.3 format from the DSLR lineup and other manufacturers migrating to APS-C for their top-end mirror less models, as in the Fuji X-Pro 1)
  
• Is it that after the initial excitement has worn off, the top 20 Amazon DSLR best sellers currently list 16 APS-C cameras and only four full-frame cameras?
• Is it that in a world where the vast majority of images will never be viewed at more than 72 dpi on computer screens and tablet devices, the differences between APS-C and Full Frame are detectable only at the highest ISO ranges, massive print sizes or by zooming in on an image on a computer screen?

Please, I know all the 5DIII buyers have to justify their purchases to themselves. But if you are going to make "proclamations" like this, how about offering some real world evidence of your claims? Is all this just based on some vague fear that the market cannot support two different formats and full frame shooters are afraid to be the ones who bet on Betamax? Stop worrying about it. There is plenty of evidence the market is big enough for both formats and even if full frame does die out, it will still be around for quite some time.

couldn't agree more. 

[KeithR]

What Unfocused said...

Especially this bit:

• Is it that in a world where the vast majority of images will never be viewed at more than 72 dpi on computer screens and tablet devices, the differences between APS-C and Full Frame are detectable only at the highest ISO ranges, massive print sizes or by zooming in on an image on a computer screen?

[AJ]

yup.

Especially the bit about 5D3 buyers having to justify their expense.

[risc32]

 actually i did bet on betamax, and it did out live and outperform vhs. Sure in the long run we'll all be dead, but i still bet i'm right. but god and my wife know i'm mostly wrong. either way, it's not like it matters to me or anyone for years to come. I thought of something that hasn't been replaced by some new cheap little thing thats also better. a properly setup vidikron "vision one". i think they were 40k back in 98' or so. no tuner, no scaler(another 20k back then for a quad jobby) no sound. nothing but pure awesomeness when tuned in. holy cow, it makes me think of the parallels to my 63+year old 4x5. hmmm.

[distant.star]

Here we go again.

Eventually all DSLRs will be obsolete. And, eventually, we will all be dead.

In the meantime, these proclamations about the "death" of one particular format are beyond silly.

.

Yep. Mr. Smirky throws out a piece of red meat then smirks at the ensuing "controversy."

As unfocused suggests everything is eventually "...made irrelevant by the advancement of technology," as Mr. Smirky said.

A couple of thoughts come to mind.

First, for 90% of people now actively on this forum, by the time crop sensors are done, we will have moved on to wholly different interests -- creating communicator "apps," collecting antique birdbaths, maybe looking up trying to see what it says on that tombstone they put over our heads. Better, as my friends in the 12-step programs always say to take it "one day at a time."

Second, I will agree that Canon isn't putting much into the crop frame products line. I see their real energy and resources going into video. That, along with the move of prominent photojournalists to video, supports my belief that the heyday of still photography is ending. I really believe that 50 years from now, given the world survives intact, almost everything we now see as still photography will be video. A still picture will not hang on the wall in your house -- it will be a compelling video that looks real enough to walk into. Same with little photo frames on your desk or atop the bookcase. Perhaps even the venerable printed book will be gone.

As it says in Ecclisiastes, "To everything there is a season." All of us, including Mr. Smirky, will one day be made irrelevant by the advancement of technology.

Thanks, unfocused.

[briansquibb]

I read this as the 1.6 crop dying as the sensor for the semi pro body.

This to me this still leaves the entry level and the 60D types

A few years back a core 2 duo was expensive - now they are budget items. There is no reason to suggest that the sensors will not continue to drop in price, which means that higher spec sensors will become available at todays budget prices

[3kramd5]

Sensor density will more than likely continue to get cheaper with time. But no matter how advanced the tech of the wafer, a 22X15 frame sensor will always be 40% of the size of a 36X24 sensor, which cuts two ways. Even if they were perfect and larger sensors weren't more likely to have defects, fewer sensors can be made for the same material cost.

[ryanjennings]

What if crop sized sensors become better than the lenses?

[Neeneko]

By this logic, wouldn't full frame also be doomed since medium format is 'better'?

At the end of the day, smaller sensors are cheaper to produce and crop sensors exist in a sweet spot between production cost and results, and much of that has to do with the physical geometry in relation to the lenses.

Something to keep in mind with sensors and price reductions is that there is an opportunity cost that prevents cheaper older generation sensors from being produced.  Just like memory, it just isn't worth it to produce them when the production lines can be swapped over to newer ones with better margins.

I do have to comment though, the move to video is not a forgone conclusion.  While many people talk about the death of still photojournalism and the rise of 'video is everything', there is already a growing backlash to this over enthusiasm.  Media outlets have jumped on the bandwagon so they don't look like they are behind the curve, but customers are increasingly getting annoyed with content that can only be accessed via time consuming video.  Eventually this will even out and I suspect that a large chunk of viewers will continue to prefer static content even if hipsters and technophiles obsess over 'video is everything'.

[briansquibb]

We are looking at the top of the range ie 7D up so cost is not such a major factor as image IQ and other 'pro'  feature such as mp, fps, iso etc

For example there may be a case when a 120GB SSD is internal to the camera and transfered for pp by either wireless or ethernet - this would allow a massive increase in data transfer from the sensor - mabe more fps or larger mps.

I can see no reason why mf may be possible - but as 120mp is possible on aps-h I think this may be some time away

One thing I am certain of - we should not be wedded to a specific technology - just the pursuit of better image IQ

[AJ]

If video is the future then both EF and EF-S lenses may be risky investments.

Suppose Canon invents a whole new lens mount, to facilitate things like follow-focus, focus racking driven from the camera body, aperture control while filming, and things like that.

If so, no matter what you buy right now, you'll be hooped and you'll have to start from scratch.  Just like the FD to EF switch.

[dtameling]

What if crop sized sensors become better than the lenses?

They already are. The sensor used in the NEX-7, A77, D3200 is there today. Recent tests of the NEX-7 show that you need some serious glass to even come close to resolve all the sensor is capable of. At least $1000 worth of Leica or Zeiss optics.

While FF cameras certainly offer a lot, crop sensors offer their own benefits...they're far from the cut budget version of full frame many make them out to be.

Many DSLR shooters are videographers. The 1.6/1.5 crop is almost identical to Super35 and that's a good place to be at.

Many of these same shooters are also shooting with high end video cameras...many of which are adopting Super35 sized sensors as the new standard. Being able to replicate the DOF and feel between the two is very appealing. I've been told by more than one DP that the 5D is TOO shallow for some shots.

And those that are worried about the video race, don't watch what Canon (and others are doing), watch what the video lens makers are doing. As long as Zeiss is making cinema primes with an EF mount, you're safe. They're making E Mount cinema primes now...who saw that coming?

I like having the options of smaller lenses. While my L glass is sharp and amazing, my crop sensor lenses are smaller, lighter, and cheaper. With the exception of top shelf L glass, they're very good compared to most lenses.

I like crop factor. It can get a bit annoying on the wide end but turning a 400mm lens into a 600+mm lens is nice to have around for certain applications.

Megapixels can be nice in the studio but I shoot portraits with a 7D and almost always get more detail than I need, having to back things off in Lightroom so the customer can't count their own pores.

[emag]

APS-C mirrorless that takes only EF-s lenses.  It could happen.  And it would sell.  Canon should have put one out a year or more ago.  My old 4MP G2 still gets used for time lapses, I'd love to have something of somewhat similar form factor with interchangeable lenses and 7D-ish features and IQ.  'twould extend the life of the 18MP sensor, IMHO.  In fact, I think it makes more sense than what we're expecting the T4i to be.  Just my $.02

[unfocused]

...I do have to comment though, the move to video is not a forgone conclusion.  While many people talk about the death of still photojournalism and the rise of 'video is everything', there is already a growing backlash to this over enthusiasm.  Media outlets have jumped on the bandwagon so they don't look like they are behind the curve, but customers are increasingly getting annoyed with content that can only be accessed via time consuming video.  Eventually this will even out and I suspect that a large chunk of viewers will continue to prefer static content even if hipsters and technophiles obsess over 'video is everything'.

Yes. For those who want to really think about this, I recommend a look at Roland Barthe's comments on film vs. stills in the classic Camera Lucida (which is cheap, readily accessible, amazingly readable and educational). Like painting and photography, video/film and photography are two distinct mediums. Each has their strengths and weaknesses, but they are far different and there is plenty of room left to explore still photography. Video hasn't killed off the novel and it won't kill off still photography either.