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Author Topic: The Last Generation of the Crop Sensor Cameras  (Read 10981 times)

oosh

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Re: The Last Generation of the Crop Sensor Cameras
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2012, 05:58:48 PM »
You think film is dead? You could't be further from the truth! That said it's probably a pretty typical thought process of users apart of a rumours forum that insist on buying the latest and greatest digital equipment at all costs.

Film is not dead. Have medium format or larger scanned properly and it will out-resolve any 35mm DSLR. D800 included. Shoot large format and it will out-resolve ANY digital sensor, and will continue to do so for years to come yet.

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Re: The Last Generation of the Crop Sensor Cameras
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2012, 05:58:48 PM »

V8Beast

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Re: The Last Generation of the Crop Sensor Cameras
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2012, 06:12:43 PM »
I prefer the IQ of full-frame sensors, but it comes at a substantial price premium. I'm not rich, so the only reason I can justify the cost of full-frame bodies is because I use them for work. At the risk of getting flamed, I'd venture to say that many, many people with full-frame bodies don't have the skill set to justify having such expensive gear. If you're rich, who cares, but if you aren't, then I don't see the point in spending 4-7 times the price of a Rebel on a 5DIII or 5DIII. IMHO, the overall value you get in a camera drops substantially when going form a crop to a FF body. 

Full-frame proponents will say there is a substantial difference in IQ compared to a crop body. This is true in some situations when the images are viewed by a trained eye, but most of the general public can not distinguish the difference.

I shot professionally with a 20D for four years before going full-frame, which was two years longer than I planned. It just so happened that by spending some extra time in the field and in post processing, I could get 80% of the IQ of a full-frame file with a crop body, so I held off on upgrading as long as I could. This wasn't necessarily a bad thing, since it forced me to refine my technique instead of relying on the camera to hide my mistakes. Anyone looking through my portfolio would have an awfully hard time distinguishing which images were taken with my 20D, 5DC, or 5DIII.

That said, I know which images were taken with which camera because I still vividly recall the total effort required to achieve those results. From a business perspective, my current FF bodies allow streamlining my shooting process in the field and overall workflow enough to where it is now cost effective to shoot full-frame. It's a time savings thing more than anything else, in addition to allowing me to eek out that last smidgen of IQ. However, everyone's needs are different. and since I don't own Canon stock, I can't in good conscience recommend buying a FF body unless you really need it.   

stilscream

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Re: The Last Generation of the Crop Sensor Cameras
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2012, 06:47:31 PM »
When crop sensors and mirrored dslrs are obsolete are probably when cameras themselves are obsolete. We'll all have bionic eyes and brains that record everything using biological based signals to control zoom and focus.

Before that generation focusing will become obsolete, with cameras taking information and focus will be selected in post processing.
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idimoe

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Re: The Last Generation of the Crop Sensor Cameras
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2012, 06:54:07 PM »
I'm sorry, last time I checked the Rebel series is one of the best selling DSLRs in the market today, period. Reason? Accessibility and price. Unless FX manufacturing costs go down substantially, crop sensors will be around for years.

briansquibb

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Re: The Last Generation of the Crop Sensor Cameras
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2012, 07:06:04 PM »
I moved to ff when I had a 50D - so yes when I got the 5D i saw an immediate improvement in the reduced noise and the improved skin tones.

The 5DII followed and I didn't see much improvement except another stop in iso performance plus the 21mp which I never really utilised

The 50D was replaced with the 7D, which I hated - I find the colours rather garish out of the camera and alongside the 5DII the low light performance was poor.

The 7D was replaced by the 1D4 which improved my images almost overnight. Hooked on the Series 1 body (I have large hands that makes the 7D feel like a toy) I then replaced the 5DII with the 1DS3 instead of the more logical move to the rumoured 5DIII.

The 1DS3 is a really fantastic camera for me. The skin tones are so much better out of the camera than from the 5DII. I love the series 1 body allowing rapid moves from landscape to portrait and back at will ( and AF point following like the 7D) - plus the controls work better for me.

Moving from the 7D and the 5D2 the AF on both is so much better - in speed, accuracy and extra points to choose from. My failure rate due to AF problems that are not mine have dropped significantly. The fps and (occasionally) the bigger buffer is a major factor for me.

The 1D4 ability to have the Manual + ec + auto iso is my default and makes the 1D4 rather like a top P&S where I can forget the technical bits and focus on the content whilst knowing that the camera will deliver.

The series 1 AF point metering is excellent - as is the ability to select up to 8 AF points for metering a real bonus.

What I am getting too (albeit slowly) is that I have two different sensor types with very simillar functionality. I dont feel a need for ff or any other specific sensor - the key is :

- IQ of the pictures (including low light, noise etc)
- practicality of the body
- functionality to do what you want
- it has the features you need for the job you are going to do with it

I think we should move away from thinking crop or ff and start thinking of IQ - because that is what sells the images not the sensor type

foobar

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Re: The Last Generation of the Crop Sensor Cameras
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2012, 07:51:08 PM »
APC-C is not obsolete, and even if it becomes obsolete some day, it won't be because everyone is moving to FF.

- An APS-C sensor will always cost a fraction of what a FF sensor costs (read Canons FF whitepaper if you want to know why that is)
- APS-C cameras can be built smaller, lighter and cheaper than their FF counterparts
- Lenses designed for APS-C can be built smaller, lighter and cheaper (especially in the non-tele focal ranges) than their FF counterparts

Even disregarding the cost of the sensor, there are enough other reasons why smaller sensor formats make sense. Just think about why mirrorless cameras have become so popular: Mainly because they offer DSLR-like quality in a much smaller form factor. To a lot of people, this is important (probably not to the majority of people on this site, though).


If there's a sensor format that's obsolete, it's APS-H. Born out of technical circumstances, used only by a single manufacturer (Canon) on a single, relatively low volume line of cameras (the 1D series) and never having a wide-angle or even just a standard zoom with crop-factor-adjusted focal lengths for it. I still don't get why people think this is the future, while on the other hand, Canon (and other manufacturers) have built complete lineups of cameras, lenses and accessories for FF and APS-C.
Of course the APS-H cameras themselves were/are brilliant, but they were for people who knew why they needed them.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 08:05:25 PM by foobar »

pwp

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Re: The Last Generation of the Crop Sensor Cameras
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2012, 08:03:15 PM »
APS-C will be around for a good while yet. It's a cash cow for the manufacturers. It's probably best to just on with taking great images and not get too worked up about uncertain futures.

I shoot FF & APS-H. APS-H has become a real favourite for the way I shoot and have had a very productive relationship with the format all the way from the original 1D. I mostly shoot with longer lenses. So the 70-200 becomes a 91- 260 f/2.8. And the 300 f/2.8 becomes a very handy 390 f/2.8.

Given the virtual certainty APS-H will vanish after the final 1D4 is sold, I'll be hoping for a comprehensively upgraded 7DII to fill the gap as a practical working companion to the 1DX when it finally ships.

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Re: The Last Generation of the Crop Sensor Cameras
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2012, 08:03:15 PM »

briansquibb

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Re: The Last Generation of the Crop Sensor Cameras
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2012, 08:12:43 PM »
APC-C is not obsolete, and even if it becomes obsolete, it won't be because everyone is moving to FF.

- An APS-C sensor will always cost a fraction of what a FF sensor costs (read Canons FF whitepaper if you want to know why that is)

Is that important if a aps-c is 1 dollar and a ff is 2 dollars?


- APS-C cameras can be built smaller, lighter and cheaper than their FF counterparts



Not a lot smaller - and not everyone wants miniature featherweight bodies like the NEX5


- Lenses designed for APS-C can be built smaller, lighter and cheaper (especially in the non-tele focal ranges) than their FF counterparts


and be expensive as Canon wont be able support economies of scale


Even disregarding the cost of the sensor, there are enough other reasons why smaller sensor formats make sense. Just think about why mirrorless cameras have become so popular: Mainly because they offer DSLR-like quality in a much smaller form factor. To a lot of people, this is important (probably not to the majority of people on this site, though).


That is why they are moving to larger sensors and aps-c then?



If there's a sensor format that's obsolete, it's APS-H. Born out of technical circumstances, used only by a single manufacturer (Canon) on a single, relatively low volume line of cameras (the 1D series) and never having a wide-angle or even just a standard zoom with crop-factor-adjusted focal lengths for it. I still don't get why people think this is the future, while on the other hand, Canon (and other manufacturers) have built complete lineups of cameras, lenses and accessories for FF and APS-C.
Of course the APS-H cameras themselves were/are brilliant, but they were for people who knew why they needed them.

So you think 1.6 aps-c is obsolete because they are only used by a single manufacturer (Canon).

What on earth is a 'standard' zoom? If you are talking about a 70-200 - then why isn't there an aps-c crop-factor-adjusted lens? If you are talking about the 18-55 then the 24-70 is very very close to 1.3 adjusted

APS-H is a lot cheaper to make than ff too - so does that means they are not obsolete then?

foobar

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Re: The Last Generation of the Crop Sensor Cameras
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2012, 08:41:03 PM »
Given the virtual certainty APS-H will vanish after the final 1D4 is sold, I'll be hoping for a comprehensively upgraded 7DII to fill the gap as a practical working companion to the 1DX when it finally ships.
I really hope Canon gets it's sensor tech up to scratch with the 7D Mark II. Apart from that, I think we'll mostly see an APS-C version of what the 5D3 brought to the table (since the 5D3's body already seems to be an evolution of the original 7D).


Is that important if a aps-c is 1 dollar and a ff is 2 dollars?
We are far, far away from those prices. And unlike other silicon chips (which get cheaper because of reduced chip size), the only time camera sensors get a major drop in manufacturing price is when wafer sizes increase, which only happens every couple of years because the factories need to be completely retooled for that.

Not a lot smaller - and not everyone wants miniature featherweight bodies like the NEX5
Of course not everyone, but the mass market is moving towards smaller cameras, and that's where the money is. Different people have different needs, that's why Sony is also offering a bazillion other camera models besides the Nex series.

and be expensive as Canon wont be able support economies of scale
Canon sells a lot more APS-C cameras and lenses than it does FF bodies and lenses.

That is why they are moving to larger sensors and aps-c then?
There is a market for larger sensors and it's profitable. It's not a mass market compared to APS-C, though. And currently, Canon is consolidating it's pro lineup from two sensor formats (APS-H and 35mm FF) to a single one (the 35mm FF format people have known and used for years).

So you think 1.6 aps-c is obsolete because they are only used by a single manufacturer (Canon).
If you want to be nitpicking, 1.6x crop is indeed only used by a single manufacturer because all others are using a very slightly larger sensor. Well played. If you want to be even more precise, you could even say that Canon is using a whole lot of different "about APS-C sized" sensor formats, since their individual APS-C sensor models actually differ by fractions of millimeters.

Does this nitpicking help this discussion? I don't think so. For the majority of photographers, there are two common sensor formats: Cropped sensors, meaning 1,5~1,6x crop factor and FF, which means the classical 35mm format to most people.

What on earth is a 'standard' zoom? If you are talking about a 70-200 - then why isn't there an aps-c crop-factor-adjusted lens? If you are talking about the 18-55 then the 24-70 is very very close to 1.3 adjusted
A zoom lens in the "moderate wide-angle to slight telephoto" range is commonly refered to as a "standard zoom".
And if you think that the 31mm-equivalent field of view you get at the wide end of a 24-105mm is about equal to the real 24mm you get on a FF camera (or the 15mm you get with the 15-85mm on a crop camera), well... okay. That's your opinion.



Anyway, I don't know what the bashing is all about. I don't dislike APS-H, I'm just saying that Canon hasn't shown much interest in the format over the years.
Besides, I really liked the statement at the end of your previous posting:

Quote from: briansquibb
I think we should move away from thinking crop or ff and start thinking of IQ - because that is what sells the images not the sensor type

I'm totally with you on that. I just wanted to shed some light on the economic side of things in my posting. I can't predict what we'll have in 50 years, but for the time being, it simply looks that APS-C will continue to be the primary sensor format for DSLRs in terms of volume. In the pro sector, I believe that we'll see a few more FF models in the coming years (the 5D3 and D800 have become so advanced that there's now room for more entry-level FF models). Still, I don't think we'll see a sub-$1000 FF DSLR (used market excluded ;) ) in the next couple of years.

And to come back to the original topic: Even if Canon managed to release a $1500 entry-level FF camera next to a (potential) $1500 7D Mark II, the FF camera would be more or less a large sensor/body rebel while the 7D Mark II would be almost a small sensor/body 1-series in comparison.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 08:58:48 PM by foobar »

Violettpunkt

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Re: The Last Generation of the Crop Sensor Cameras
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2012, 09:49:42 PM »
Can someone name something electronic that hasn't gotten faster, smaller, cheaper, and better for less? that's a real question, perhaps there are examples, i just can't think of any.
Graphing Calculators somewhat fit your description.

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Re: The Last Generation of the Crop Sensor Cameras
« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2012, 11:38:13 PM »
Too bad Karma is dead. I'd be giving some big time positive to Foobar. Excellent, well-reasoned and informed posts.

Unfortunately it probably won't make a lot of difference but I still commend you for trying to set things straight.
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smirkypants

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Re: The Last Generation of the Crop Sensor Cameras
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2012, 12:07:15 AM »
Please note... I didn't say that it was dead now. I said this coming was the last generation in the PRO lines. This means a single digit followed by a D (e.g. 7D). They'll continue to make all kinds of other cameras with crop sensors.

I say this because for the longest time I was waiting for the 7D2 & the 1D4 because of the extra reach offered by the crop sensor. But I've been shooting with the D800 lately (along with my 5D3) and it just made me realize that all those megapixels made a crop sensor irrelevant. You get the extra reach by just changing modes.

Sure Canon isn't ready with such a sensor yet, so there will probably be a 7D2, but after that, why have a pro camera with a crop when it will offer no advantages? More megapixels are coming fast.

So, you know, instead of just reading the headline and reacting violently, read the reasoning. And while I appreciate the Keynes quote on the long run, I wasn't talking 50 years from now... I was thinking about what will be offered around the country and whether it would be wise, if you have great plans ahead, to invest in EF-S glass...

Geez. This is a speculation site. You want we should all just open up another "I'm pissed at the 5D3 thread?"

swrightgfx

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Re: The Last Generation of the Crop Sensor Cameras
« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2012, 01:30:11 AM »
I agree with smirkypants. I don't know when, but I think eventually everything will be full frame. Or maybe even some new dimension.

How large would a camera phone be with a FF sensor??  Somehow, I don't think this is the case, tiny cameras are in demand.
Umm: http://www.artefactgroup.com/wvil/
That would be something, if ever it came to fruition!

Back on topic:
As others have said, crop sensors play an important role in the photographer learning curve, being cheaper but otherwise similar devices, and also make perfect business sense in a product>product life-cycle. Crops will remain for a long time.

However, I do believe they will change form, at some stage. Mirrorless cameras have steadily increased in sales and price due to clever marketing and, let's face it, size and portability. What this means for APS-C dSLRs, is that they have to be a LOT better than their EVF-only counterparts.

For the most part, Olympus, Panasonic, Sony, et al. have done a monumental job of catching up to crop-frame devices. I think part of the reason for the Nikon D3200 is to trump amateurs with high-megapixel, awe-inducing figures and sway them from equally-priced mirrorless options after failing with the Nikon 1. Truth is, the D3200 still lacks a lot of the appeal of mirrorless in its size and, no offence to the Nikon designers, ugliness.

Eventually, Canon will need to do something to fight back some of the market it is set to lose. Luckily, Canon has maintained good sales, with the first generation mirrorless actually acting as a bridge to APS-C and then on to full-frame SLRs; however, this will change. How they go about this will spell the future for APS-C mirrored devices, Canon prosumer point-and-shoots, or even their amateur line more generally.. From what I can think of, they have a couple of options:

1. Decrease APS-C dSLR size and modify styling.
Pentax released the K-x in 2009 at 123x92x68mm and Canon the 500D at 126x98x65mm. These were small in dSLR terms (the smallest I am aware of with APS-C or larger), and not too different to the (much wider) Fujifilm X-Pro1 at 139.5x81.8x42.6mm.  Let's be honest, dSLRs are ugly. Seriously ugly. Most crop-sensor buyers will never be professional photographers - they do it for the fun. Having a cool looking camera is part of that fun.

2. Join the dark side.
The old "if you can't beat 'em, join them" philosophy. An APS-C Canonet is already the talk of amateur camera forums the world over. If Canon invest in CMOS, throw on an EF-S mount and a hybrid EVF, and release a couple of pancakes and collapsibles, they could charge more than the rest, yet still attract the majority of market share. It would spell the death of mirrored crop-sensor devices, but at least we full-frame users would have a compact body to turn to without having to use our EF lenses in MF on something like a Sony Nex.


EDIT: WVIL at CES last year: WVIL unbelievable new camera at CES 2011
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 01:37:55 AM by swrightgfx »

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Re: The Last Generation of the Crop Sensor Cameras
« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2012, 01:30:11 AM »

briansquibb

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Re: The Last Generation of the Crop Sensor Cameras
« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2012, 02:30:56 AM »
Why is everyone assuming this topic is saying that aps-c is dying.

This thread is about the top of the range as the OP came back and said

- I could never see a 600 on a NEX5 sized body, the ergonomics would be appalling
- the mass market is NOTHING to do with this thread, a total red herring
- aps-c lens is a red herring because the top of the range cameras will not and are not be aps-c
- the 5DIII is the first sign of the 7D market being erroded, apart from 2fps it is superior in every department
- mirrorless is just another technology that is available, but not central to the deign engineers. It has a lot of potential - but does it scale to mf?
- I believe aps-h has the potential of being the aps-c of the next generation of semi pro cameras due to is low manufacturing costs (compared to ff). It is also a size very usefull to video people and therefore could power the low end (semi pro)  video market

I dont understand why people are so fixated and defensive about aps-s especially in the market place where IQ is king.

I have an original Canon APS film camera which promised the earth and delivered dirt, OK for holiday snaps but little else - it was relegated to the back of the cupboard and the older, relegated 35mm Canon 100 was brought out again. I can see history repeating itself here - the 7D has still not got past the original 5D in IQ yet is being feted as a fantastic camera, hardly got past the image IQ of the 40D either (although better in low light)

If all the 7D users were given a 5DIII for 6 months, I would suggest that hardly any would want to switch back.

swrightgfx

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Re: The Last Generation of the Crop Sensor Cameras
« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2012, 02:40:42 AM »
Why is everyone assuming this topic is saying that aps-c is dying.

This thread is about the top of the range as the OP came back and said

- I could never see a 600 on a NEX5 sized body, the ergonomics would be appalling
- the mass market is NOTHING to do with this thread, a total red herring
- aps-c lens is a red herring because the top of the range cameras will not and are not be aps-c
- the 5DIII is the first sign of the 7D market being erroded, apart from 2fps it is superior in every department
- mirrorless is just another technology that is available, but not central to the deign engineers. It has a lot of potential - but does it scale to mf?
- I believe aps-h has the potential of being the aps-c of the next generation of semi pro cameras due to is low manufacturing costs (compared to ff). It is also a size very usefull to video people and therefore could power the low end (semi pro)  video market

I dont understand why people are so fixated and defensive about aps-s especially in the market place where IQ is king.

I have an original Canon APS film camera which promised the earth and delivered dirt, OK for holiday snaps but little else - it was relegated to the back of the cupboard and the older, relegated 35mm Canon 100 was brought out again. I can see history repeating itself here - the 7D has still not got past the original 5D in IQ yet is being feted as a fantastic camera, hardly got past the image IQ of the 40D either (although better in low light)

If all the 7D users were given a 5DIII for 6 months, I would suggest that hardly any would want to switch back.
Top-of-the-line cameras were a subtext of the OPs original question, which regarded the possibility of crop sensor obsolescence. I don't think anyone has claimed crops to be superior to full-frame, so I am not sure what you are getting at. They are a cheaper alternative that alot of people use - here, were are debating the long-term viability and feasibility of that system, not its use in the real world in professional devices as a replacement for full-frame.

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Re: The Last Generation of the Crop Sensor Cameras
« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2012, 02:40:42 AM »