More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]

[Haydn1971]

Although I see the mirrorless APS-C eating up the entry level DSLR's like the xxxxD and xxxD, but still see a market for the intermediate level cameras from the xxD upwards, furthermore, I still think that we may still see a APS-C "1D" model, designed for even faster frame rates and reach.  EF-S lenses will undoubtably sell in big numbers, probably mostly the 55-250mm as the 18-55mm comes with the majority of Canon DSLR sale, I'm still staggered Canon don't have a set of budget EF-S primes and hope to see some in the future under the new batch of IS non L primes that are starting to appear (thinking the new 24/28mm).

[Aglet]

I'm starting to think the future of APS-C will be in mirrorless cameras and they're going to get phased out in the "prosumer" market.

I take this one step further and suspect once mirrorless cameras loose their 'toy' stigma, they will probably eat the full frame market too.  Once they get the electronic viewfinders up to similar quality to the optical ones, the advantages to being able to see exactly what the sensor is seeing will outweigh the 'it has a mirror!' thing.
-clip/crop-

PENTAX has that funky brick-like but surprisingly ergonomic K-01 mirrorless that uses their standard lens mount.  Great concept, I really like it, would buy one if I had Pentax glass.
http://pentax.ca/en/digital_slr/K-01/

Canon needs to consider doing the same thing with an EOS mount, crop and FF.  But dammit, use better sensors than their current offerings.

No mirror = much higher fps possible, and much less mirror-slap/bounce to blur hi-rez sensors.  Also cheaper lighter package to produce.  But make sure we have some smart AF options, not just slow contrast detection.  There are some patents that allow more predictive AF using a live-view function to speed things up.  This could be a very useful product system for the future.

And if there are some new entry level FF cameras coming, they'd REALLY better improve that low ISO performance and DR cuz I'd rather boost my Canon lineup with some TSE lenses and more FF bodies than figure out how to make the same shots on a D800 or rumored D400/D600.

Canon, make use a REAL landscape camera that can compete with the D800!  You already have some of the required glass that they don't.

[etto72]

I am a happy canon 5D mk III users,which i consider to be an extremely well balanced camera
I do not deny that in Studio context i wish to have a camera with more MP !
If you are among those that wish Canon to gives us a high megapixel (40+) DSLR
please sign this petition
http://www.petitionbuzz.com/petitions/canon1dsmkiv
Thanks
Ettore

[Neeneko]

You mean a Kodak DC120, right?
http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Kodak_DC120_Zoom

That was my first digital camera, good times!!!

Yep, that is the one.  My first digital camera that was not tethered to a PC.  Sadly I destroyed it when I tried to do an IR conversion....

It is a pity the binocular form factor has gone out of style, I always found it very comfortable and easy to steady.

[Marsu42]

I'm starting to think the future of APS-C will be in mirrorless cameras and they're going to get phased out in the "prosumer" market.

This was already theorized before by some and it certainly sounds like a smart move for a change for Canon to (re)gain a leadership position.

Don't underestimate the power of market forces.  I'm sure Canon has had a high MP sensor in development for quite some time now, don't be fooled into thinking they were caught off guard by the D800, I'm sure they knew what Nikon was going to release, but I also think they were caught off guard by it's price point.

Interesting - I wanted to write the exact opposite: While Canon certainly knew what Sony's tech could achieve in a Nikon full frame body, the fact that they are targeting early 2013 for the actual release of their successor and that they strangely produce the 5d2 along the successor 5d3 looks to me like they were caught off guard and now have to start thinking about how to fill the 5d2 successor and high mp gap. Maybe they put all their resources into their video line and took their dlsr position too much for granted.

[KyleSTL]

...I'm sure Canon has had a high MP sensor in development for quite some time now...

Like the 120MP APS-H sensor (August 2010)?
http://www.canonrumors.com/2010/08/canons-120mp-aps-h-sensor/

I'm sure Canon could do anything up to their most-dense 1/2.3" in a full-frame camera, but it'll all depend on what consumers (in the general sense of the word) demand, or what Canon can convince buyers they desire (and of course how much said device will cost to produce).

[briansquibb]

I'll look at the potential high MP camera if Canon starts getting their sensors from Sony.

Didn't you mean to go to Nikon Rumours forum?

[Ivar]

I'll look at the potential high MP camera if Canon starts getting their sensors from Sony.

Didn't you mean to go to Nikon Rumours forum?

No need, they have one ;-)

[briansquibb]

I'll look at the potential high MP camera if Canon starts getting their sensors from Sony.

Didn't you mean to go to Nikon Rumours forum?

No need, they have one ;-)

Not all of them .....

[LetTheRightLensIn]

From Canon's recent launches, it is obvious that they are trying to build a portfolio around DLSR based movie cams. I would not be surprised to see a 5DC... Perhaps with a much weaker AA filter to improve resolution, better codec... After all, the only real complain about the 5DIII's video capability is the resolving power.

But the biggest complaint is still about the lack of DR improvement. This is what they will take care of first, if they aren't stupid.

i have a bad feeling they will just go crazy with MP 45 and yet with the same old poor DR and zero fps and thus be worse than D800 in every way other than a space eating extra few MP

[well_dunno]

I think they will plan to have some announcement prior to, and some pre-production samples in Photokina - I cannot see how they could possibly neglect it. If not a new FF, perhaps a 7D mk II or a 70D?.. Though if I am not mistaken no new APS-C sensor will be on those - "an improved 18 MP sensor" as the rumor went. Not sure how much attention Canon would attract with them in Photokina if that is the case...

Also, I have not seen any rumor on the sensor of this entry level FF. Would it be the same as 5d mk III or 1DX  or another sensor which could be used on, let's say, an upcoming 1Ds mk 4?  I think CR is very accurate on his take and Canon is waiting to see what market wants.  They have 5 sensors out and depending on the market reactions, they will make the call...

My humble opinion anyway... 

Cheers!

[squarebox]

I'm starting to think the future of APS-C will be in mirrorless cameras and they're going to get phased out in the "prosumer" market.

I take this one step further and suspect once mirrorless cameras loose their 'toy' stigma, they will probably eat the full frame market too.  Once they get the electronic viewfinders up to similar quality to the optical ones, the advantages to being able to see exactly what the sensor is seeing will outweigh the 'it has a mirror!' thing.
-clip/crop-

PENTAX has that funky brick-like but surprisingly ergonomic K-01 mirrorless that uses their standard lens mount.  Great concept, I really like it, would buy one if I had Pentax glass.
http://pentax.ca/en/digital_slr/K-01/

Canon needs to consider doing the same thing with an EOS mount, crop and FF.  But dammit, use better sensors than their current offerings.

No mirror = much higher fps possible, and much less mirror-slap/bounce to blur hi-rez sensors.  Also cheaper lighter package to produce.  But make sure we have some smart AF options, not just slow contrast detection.  There are some patents that allow more predictive AF using a live-view function to speed things up.  This could be a very useful product system for the future.

And if there are some new entry level FF cameras coming, they'd REALLY better improve that low ISO performance and DR cuz I'd rather boost my Canon lineup with some TSE lenses and more FF bodies than figure out how to make the same shots on a D800 or rumored D400/D600.

Canon, make use a REAL landscape camera that can compete with the D800!  You already have some of the required glass that they don't.

Nikon has the same thing on their mirrorless as well.  I think this is the best route for Canon as well to be able to keep selling EF-S lens.

[dilbert]

So the digital camera market is eating itself alive?

If APS-C is going to become the mirror-less format of choice for prosumers and in a few years, FF picks up where APS-C used to be (~$1500), then life will be interesting.

In the pursuit of more megapixels, he who has the larger sensor wins. So for the consumer that always wants more megapixels, the FF camera should always be able to win (all else being equal) so if you don't have a FF sensor camera, then you can't compete above a certain price point. Catch is, not too many people printing FF CMOS sensors so ....

This may push some out of the market, to fold, or reduce product lines.

[Inst]

With regards to dynamic range, the main issue is that Sony's sensor architecture results in dramatically lower read noise compared to Canon. But read noise is not the only factor affecting sensor noise; high ISO noise is the other. Once high ISO noise becomes the dominating factor in sensor noise, Canon's sensors are competitive with Sony's.

The two ways for Canon to fix this problem is for them to redesign their sensor architecture to reduce read noise, or just to jack up the MP count so much that ISO 100 looks like ISO 3200 on a per pixel basis. However, this means that on a print basis, you can't tell the difference between Canon and Sony.

The current EV difference between Canon and Sony is 2.59 EV at ISO 100. Increasing pixels to a factor of 6 gives you about 132 MP, and should completely bridge the gap between Canon and Sony at ISO 100 while making it so that Canon would have better performance at ISO 200.

An increase in MP by 5 times, though, would require 6 times the processing capability. To match the D800's 4 frames per second, you'd need 4 DIGIC V+ processors. This would also likely cut battery life by 3/4ths, and would require a substantially larger battery.

A better way to handle this would probably be to go with a test APS-C camera. Large pixel cameras require humongous processing capabilities on the desktop computer, and with APS-Cs, you could use about the same pixel density with a reduced MP count. This would be about a 51 MP APS-C camera.

[c.d.embrey]

The rumored Nikon D600, is rumored not to have a focus motor. This puts it in the D3200 class and below the D7000. No reason for Canon not to make a FF Rebel to compete with the rumored Nikon. Looks like FF may be the new high megapixel.

I have no interest in a FF Rebel , but I would buy an APS-C Mirrorless, if the were good primes available -- I'm not interested in variable aperture Kit Zoomz . Here's hoping