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Author Topic: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]  (Read 37090 times)

pdirestajr

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2012, 01:12:40 AM »
It would be cool if Canon created a high end camera system within their EOS system that had changeable backs (sensors)- like medium format systems. Would be nice if we could just upgrade the sensor and update the firmware every few years at a lower cost.
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briansquibb

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2012, 02:47:02 AM »
Why is everyone so hung up on the technolgy in their camera?

At the end of the day it is the IQ that it delivers rather than what it uses to deliver the image.

pakosouthpark

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2012, 03:14:47 AM »
i'm sure i would welcome a new full frame entry level and cheaper than 5d mk ii! but i dont think i can wait that long (2013) to get a FF camera..

Marsu42

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2012, 03:24:53 AM »
Once high ISO noise becomes the dominating factor in sensor noise, Canon's sensors are competitive with Sony's.

The question is: How high is "high iso", what difference is there really between Nikon & Canon and how many people need that high iso performance with your average f4 lens when not shooting fast moving object in bad lighting?

While a 5d3 of course is great for weddings and such, I guess the next Nikon generation and after will push their high iso performance, too and thus Canon seems to be on the loosing track. Because as you wrote, 50mp+ is ridiculous for average photogs because the lenses cannot follow and the processing power skyrockets.

A better way to handle this would probably be to go with a test APS-C camera.

Historically, Canon is set on the ff path because their customers have spent their money on ef lenses that are only partially used on aps-c. I guess that's the reason why Canon never showed that much "love" for aps-c lenses: No L marketing, inferior build quality, no weather sealing - the ef-s lenses are there to be phased or go consumer market sooner or later. So I don't think we'll see more mp than Nikon in aps-c from Canon soon.

Why is everyone so hung up on the technolgy in their camera? At the end of the day it is the IQ that it delivers rather than what it uses to deliver the image.

The question is if it's still "safe" to spend thousands and thousands of bucks for Canon lenses when the Nikon competition is backed by Sony and has much more r&d money for their sensors - and this does influence iq very much on the long run.

briansquibb

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2012, 03:36:57 AM »
Why is everyone so hung up on the technolgy in their camera? At the end of the day it is the IQ that it delivers rather than what it uses to deliver the image.

The question is if it's still "safe" to spend thousands and thousands of bucks for Canon lenses when the Nikon competition is backed by Sony and has much more r&d money for their sensors - and this does influence iq very much on the long run.

I have no inherent brand loyalty.

If I was going to spend thousands and thousands on kit then I would consider a tactical approach ie what is currently available or known to be available rather that what might be.

I have just made some major purchases and yes I did consider what Nikon was offering and worked out the figures. There was little in the reviews that suggested that (for me) that Nikon was much different to Canon, but the budget was significantly lower by staying with Canon, so I stayed.

Puchasing for me is more of a logical process than an emotive process.

In hindsight my puchases worked well for me - I ended up with the 1Ds3 and didn't have to wait for the 5DIII or endure the teething problems, and have a camera that has simillar functionality and at least as good IQ.

birtembuk

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2012, 05:57:20 AM »
I'm starting to think the future of APS-C will be in mirrorless cameras and they're going to get phased out in the "prosumer" market.

This was already theorized before by some and it certainly sounds like a smart move for a change for Canon to (re)gain a leadership position.

Don't underestimate the power of market forces.  I'm sure Canon has had a high MP sensor in development for quite some time now, don't be fooled into thinking they were caught off guard by the D800, I'm sure they knew what Nikon was going to release, but I also think they were caught off guard by it's price point.

Interesting - I wanted to write the exact opposite: While Canon certainly knew what Sony's tech could achieve in a Nikon full frame body, the fact that they are targeting early 2013 for the actual release of their successor and that they strangely produce the 5d2 along the successor 5d3 looks to me like they were caught off guard and now have to start thinking about how to fill the 5d2 successor and high mp gap. Maybe they put all their resources into their video line and took their dlsr position too much for granted.

I believe that also.

Ivar

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2012, 06:47:12 AM »
From Canon's recent launches, it is obvious that they are trying to build a portfolio around DLSR based movie cams. I would not be surprised to see a 5DC... Perhaps with a much weaker AA filter to improve resolution, better codec... After all, the only real complain about the 5DIII's video capability is the resolving power.
But the biggest complaint is still about the lack of DR improvement. This is what they will take care of first, if they aren't stupid.

i have a bad feeling they will just go crazy with MP 45 and yet with the same old poor DR and zero fps and thus be worse than D800 in every way other than a space eating extra few MP

Unfortunately I think the same. Too late too little with high price - they still plan carefully which features go where, there doesn't seem to be desire to push limits. At this I'm not even sure if Canon is capable of making a decent sensor. On top of all, announced early delivered who knows when.

p.s. there is absolutely nothing wrong with higher prices as far as they match the marketplace reality. Why not pay more for objectively premium product.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 06:50:48 AM by Ivar »

JurijTurnsek

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2012, 07:20:08 AM »
Gotta say, I wouldn't mind a "FF rebel" - I've been shooting 1,6x crop with max 70mm for almost 4 years now and I've yet to feel a sudden urge to go further with mm (and even then, FF 200mm would be my ceiling). We're not all wlidlife/stadium sports photographers - there's lot to be captured in the wide, medium range.

dilbert

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EF-S lenses?
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2012, 10:37:33 AM »
If Canon continues to push FF further down into its product range, what does that mean for EF-S lenses?
Do they become the bridging lens format used by APS-C cameras until FF was affordable?
Or do they get supported by some sort of small NEX-like mirrorless camera?

seta666

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2012, 12:06:42 PM »
I think a cheaper alternative to the 5D mkIII is needed; not everybody needs 61p AF or weather sealing for instance. I think a 1500$ FF is possible nowadays and I wish those nikon D600 rumours are true, because canon will have to do something about it

For instance as a macro shooter I do not need the AF, burst or fancy stuff like video but I would wellcome a couple of stops better DR (which 5D mkIII) does not provide or Hardware ISO 50

Regards


dilbert

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2012, 01:49:22 PM »
Whilst the current 5D2 is at around $2100, the rumors for the Nikon D600 put it at $1500. There's no way on earth Canon would officially sell the 5D2 at that price. If Canon were to introduce an entry-level FF camera at that price point then it would get in the way of the 7D2 (if that remained a APS-C.)

So I cannot see the future having any room for a crop-sensor 7D Mark II.

And at 24MP, a $1500 Nikon full frame D600 would take a lot of life out of 5D2 sales. The only people that would continue to buy the 5D2 after that would be people with lesser Canon DSLRs that already own full-frame lenses and don't want to switch to Nikon.

When I look at the 5D3 from a strategic point of view, the only context it makes sense in is one where it is a $3500 servicing of the 5D2 to fix focusing and other issues. Or as some have put it, the 5D3 is what the 5D2 should have been only 3.5 years too late. Otherwise nothing about it as a product makes sense. So once you arrive at that conclusion (that the 5D3 doesn't make sense), then you can be much more open minded about what full frame cameras Canon can introduce during the remainder of the year.

c.d.embrey

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2012, 03:29:12 PM »
... If Canon were to introduce an entry-level FF camera at that price point then it would get in the way of the 7D2 (if that remained a APS-C.)

So I cannot see the future having any room for a crop-sensor 7D Mark II.

FFFanboys have a hard time realizing that not everyone wants or needs a FF camera! Size and weight are very important to some Pros. And these Pros have even switched to M43  to get rid of unwanted size/weight.

Here are the weights for a few cameras (body only):
Canon 5D3, FF - 30.3 oz. :(
Canon 7D, APS-C - 28.9 oz. :(
Canon 60D, APS-C - 23.8 oz. :) Why would I want anything heavier than a XXD ???
Sony NEX 7, APS-C - 10.3 oz.
Olympus OM-D EM-5, M43 - 13 oz.
Olympus E-P3 -    11.32oz.

WOW!!!, a 20 oz. (1lb. 4 oz.) difference between a NEX 7 and a 5D2 :( Isn't it about time for Canon to come out with a Pro Mirrorless ???

BTW I rented a 5D3 for a test shoot, nice camera, but too damned heavy.

BTW2 I own a Sony NEX 5n, that I bought to use as a Video Crash Cam. Great video, great stills (blows away Canon APS-C) and this 16.1 Mp APS-C camera only weighs 7.4 oz. :). It has no EVF :(, but that's not needed for a Crash Cam.

dilbert

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2012, 04:10:07 PM »
FFFanboys have a hard time realizing that not everyone wants or needs a FF camera! Size and weight are very important to some Pros. And these Pros have even switched to M43  to get rid of unwanted size/weight.

10+ yeas ago, everyone had full frame cameras.

briansquibb

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2012, 06:44:24 PM »

FFFanboys have a hard time realizing that not everyone wants or needs a FF camera! Size and weight are very important to some Pros. And these Pros have even switched to M43  to get rid of unwanted size/weight.

Here are the weights for a few cameras (body only):
Canon 5D3, FF - 30.3 oz. :(
Canon 7D, APS-C - 28.9 oz. :(
Canon 60D, APS-C - 23.8 oz. :) Why would I want anything heavier than a XXD ???
Sony NEX 7, APS-C - 10.3 oz.
Olympus OM-D EM-5, M43 - 13 oz.
Olympus E-P3 -    11.32oz.

WOW!!!, a 20 oz. (1lb. 4 oz.) difference between a NEX 7 and a 5D2 :( Isn't it about time for Canon to come out with a Pro Mirrorless ???

BTW I rented a 5D3 for a test shoot, nice camera, but too damned heavy.

BTW2 I own a Sony NEX 5n, that I bought to use as a Video Crash Cam. Great video, great stills (blows away Canon APS-C) and this 16.1 Mp APS-C camera only weighs 7.4 oz. :). It has no EVF :(, but that's not needed for a Crash Cam.

Well Sony fanboy, nice to see you on this Canon site. Good luck with sticking a 600mm lens on your NEX5

skoobey

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2012, 07:21:16 PM »
5d2 is so good, I see no reason to put out anything cheaper than it, and I would much rather like to be wowed by 1ds4.