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Author Topic: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda  (Read 37275 times)

risc32

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2012, 08:27:43 PM »
I ALMOST can't believe we are being told to worry about noise on all of our imagines that we admittedly can't see. That reminds me about the release of the DVD format. All the Laserdisc guys went on and on about the invisible noise from the digital mombo gumbo tricks that are going on, and how it's everywhere and our pictures will suck for it. yeah?

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2012, 08:27:43 PM »

cpsico

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2012, 08:34:17 PM »
I can honestly see in real world situations where the d800's high Dynamic range would be very welcome. I did some fall shots with some deep shadows that would have been much easier to tweak in photo shop if the 5dII didn't have the amount of shadow noise as it does. Weddings on beach's also come to mind, etc.

Now in the case 5d Mark III it seems to be a well rounded camera capable of sports, studio, great video and in my eyes from the samples i have seen has great color rendition.

I could see the d800 being another tool in my camera bag, but hardly a reason to jump ship. Cameras are tools, and the d800 is a very specific one at that.

pete vella

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2012, 08:55:33 PM »
so as i see it on nikon forums none are complaining about the dr. they are saying they wanted a camera more like the mkiii in function. so we got the body, and they had to subout the the sensor to sony to get the tech. so nikon has to piece meal their camera together, has to play nice with sony to do it. while canon has to now increase the low iso dr to make us happy.  not so bad i think.

pete vella

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2012, 03:31:19 AM »
tests from dxomark and techradar.
I agree i would be great to improve dr across iso. I also take pride that canon feels they can be master of their own destiny when it comes to camera/sensor making.http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/news/120_megapixel_apsh_format_cmos_sensor.do For me other than the nikon d3 i dont like the feel of their cameras. Like holding the wrong brush in your hand when painting. Some times it come down to how well you can use it not just how well it works on the spec sheet.  Nikons are great cameras and the d800 looks like it may have the best sensor for now; However, I belive for my use the mkiii is the better all around camera.

"The bottom line, is that these are both amazing tools for photography. There are good points and bad points to both. Nothing is ever perfect and the best advice I can give, is for you to evaluate your needs and make your decision based on what you primarily shoot. There are workarounds to every problem but ultimately a photographer needs to know the camera's strengths and weaknesses in order to get the most out of it. " -www.fredmiranda.com
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 03:34:29 AM by pete vella »

gecko

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2012, 04:46:53 AM »
So if DR is that important to you - whether it's for practical reasons or just to placate your ego - admit that Canon is inferior at the moment, and buy yourself a D800 :)

I am now seriously considering selling all of my Canon gear.

First time for me too to consider this in 20 years.  Not that I have a great deal of stuff.

I was going to buy the 5DIII, but have decided that I don't need the upgrade.  Plan B was to use the money saved on a new lens (TS-E 24mm).

5dII plus the TS-E 24 sounded like a great option, but the stellar performance of the D800 is making me wonder......though the Nikon ergonomics tend to put me off.

   
EOS 3, 7D, 5DII, EF 17-40 f4L, EF 100-400 f4-5.6L,  TS-E 24 f3.5 II, Zeiss 21.

psolberg

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2012, 07:18:33 AM »
the low ISO noise on the shadows on the 5DMK III is troubling. Why would this guy shoot mostly a drive way with the D800? I'm sort of dissapointed.

I guess he'll be waiting to see nikon's newly discovered upcoming 17mm TS, and 10mm f/4 lenses

http://nikonrumors.com/2012/04/27/nikon-patents-for-17mm-f4-tilt-and-shift-10mm-f4-16-30mm-f4-5-5-6-and-28mm-f1-4-lenses.aspx/

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I am now seriously considering selling all of my Canon gear.

+1. I am selling once I know I can buy a D800. NO stock anywhere.

Quote
so as i see it on nikon forums none are complaining about the dr. they are saying they wanted a camera more like the mkiii in function
the way I see it they already have it. D700 does really good at 8fps and it costs about the same as a 5DMKII. And if you don't need 36MP, 12MP is plenty then. The rumored D600 is also interesting. 24MP sensor with the D800 processor could make it very very fast and push the ISO to 5DmkIII levels or beyond. If they keep that 14stops of DR then they could have a true D700 successor.



Astro

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2012, 07:43:39 AM »
I ALMOST can't believe we are being told to worry about noise on all of our imagines that we admittedly can't see. That reminds me about the release of the DVD format. All the Laserdisc guys went on and on about the invisible noise from the digital mombo gumbo tricks that are going on, and how it's everywhere and our pictures will suck for it. yeah?

he?

people complaining about the 5D MK2 shadow noise forever, that is nothing new... and has not changed with the 5D MK3.

so i don´t know what your talking about?!

it´s very visible in images when you push the shadows a bit.

if you don´t see how much cleaner the D800 is in the shadow areas then i strongly advice you to go and see an eye doctor.  :)

but i guess it´s the usual ostrich-like fashion.. don´t see what you don´t like.


btw: some people here intermix "read noise" and DR in a way that is wrong.

the D800 has a better DR because the read noise is lower.
not the other way around. a sensor maker has influence on the read noise.

dynamic range = full well capacity (electrons) / read noise (electrons)

so saying we need better DR to have less noise is to put the cart before the horse.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 08:05:31 AM by Astro »

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2012, 07:43:39 AM »

KeithR

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2012, 08:52:08 AM »
and has not changed with the 5D MK3.

Yeah, about that...

It has changed.

I've downloaded and processed a number of 5D Mk III files, and I've been able to recover a massive amount of data from the shadows with no significant (certainly no unmanageable) noise penalty, and none of the 5D Mk II-style pattern noise the LuLa review managed to dig out.

Frankly I've no idea how Michael Reichmann got such poor results: I've used the new shadows slider in Lr 4 and can easily dig out 4+ stops from the shadows - more if I take a bit of extra care in PP.

Yes, the D800 is still "better" for digging into the shadows, but the 5D Mk III's files are a damn' sight better than they're being given credit for - presumably by people who haven't actually tried for themselves but are happy to pile onto the bashing anyway.


Astro

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2012, 09:07:17 AM »
and has not changed with the 5D MK3.
Yeah, about that...

It has changed.

to clarify myself....
the difference has not changed between canon and nikon.

the 5D MK3 is a bit better.. but the D800 seems to do a lot better.

so people still complain about the worse shadow noise performance.

Quote from: astro
people complaining about the 5D MK2 shadow noise forever, that is nothing new... and has not changed with the 5D MK3.

that´s the complete quote.


people can argue about "good enough" as long as they want.
fact is, canon and nikon are in a competition.

who is saying "ok the yankees played good enough"?
you want your team to win. :)

and if you pay with your hard earned money you want the best you can get.
both are very human feelings.

otherwise lamborghini would not sell a single car outside germany (no speed limit on some highways).   :D



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and none of the 5D Mk II-style pattern noise the LuLa review managed to dig out.

Frankly I've no idea how Michael Reichmann got such poor results

what luminous landscape article you are talking about?
or do you mean the fred miranda article?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 09:24:27 AM by Astro »

smirkypants

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2012, 09:40:07 AM »
I've downloaded and processed a number of 5D Mk III files, and I've been able to recover a massive amount of data from the shadows with no significant (certainly no unmanageable) noise penalty, and none of the 5D Mk II-style pattern noise the LuLa review managed to dig out.
It's night and day, Keith. I'm sorry, it really is. Once again, I'm not trying to just whine or complain needlessly... This is real world stuff here that affects my bottom line.

I'm attaching a file so that people can see. This is a picture I ended up selling. It was shot with a d800 and a 200-400/f4. This is a much smaller part of a larger picture, obviously. The top was the unprocessed raw file and the bottom was the detail brought out from the sunglasses. I have a 5D3, but it can't do this to nearly the same degree.

Astro

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2012, 06:56:03 PM »
more fuel:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/an_embarrassment_of_riches.shtml


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Image Quality-A Game Changer
 
I now have to report the exciting news:  For me the Nikon D800/D800E is a game changer.  Why?  Because it is the first 35 mm size camera that exceeds my threshold of image quality for exhibition prints. I have shot hundreds of tests, and in test after test the image quality is surprisingly good. The D800 delivers not just high resolution, but also outstanding dynamic range, extremely low noise and world class color accuracy and sensitivity. I would not hesitate to make 40 or even 50 inch wide exhibition prints from D800 files. Believe me, to go from a large format film view camera to a D800/800E for exhibition prints in a little over a decade is a bit shocking, but such is the incredible pace of innovation in our medium.
 
I believe that this camera represents the first product of a new era in digital photography.

if your interested in buying the D800 you should read the "However.........." part too.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 07:00:55 PM by Astro »

V8Beast

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2012, 07:14:33 PM »
more fuel:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/an_embarrassment_of_riches.shtml


From the same article:

"I have also noticed a similar effect when shooting handheld.  Shooting at the reciprocal of the focal length of the lens is not good enough-even with a VRII lens.  I would recommend multiplying the focal length of the lens times 3X and using the reciprocal of this number as the minimum shutter speed for maximum handheld quality."

Hey smirky, can you comment on this man's advice? I'd think that 2x the reciprocal would be plenty fast enough on the shutter speed to prevent camera-shake induced blur, but then again, I don't own a D800 :)

The engine shot in that article is pretty killer, and something I can relate to. Usually, to get shadow detail like that, I'm usually popping off-camera flashes and bouncing flash off a reflector.

That said, for hand-held action shots, I'm using holding open the shutter as long as possible, sometimes a 1/2 to 1/3 the reciprocal of the focal length, so obviously a D800 might not be the best tool for that job.

smirkypants

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2012, 07:24:30 PM »
Hey smirky, can you comment on this man's advice? I'd think that 2x the reciprocal would be plenty fast enough on the shutter speed to prevent camera-shake induced blur, but then again, I don't own a D800 :)

I guess his "however" boils down to "this camera is so good it'll prove how much you suck." Way to aim high. Seriously, that's what he came up with?

I think he has the shakes or something. I shoot a 7 pound lens and the d800 with battery grip and 8 batteries inside handheld, and I get dead sharp shots (as you can see by all the tiny details in the sunglasses... look at those colors! not just detail, colors!!).

Anyway, I shoot f4 and set the minimum shutter speed to 1/1600 and I'm fine... and that's with hauling over ten pounds. I guess if you're shooting in bad light you have to be more careful. If you drink too much coffee, maybe you should consider a different camera.

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2012, 07:24:30 PM »

V8Beast

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2012, 08:46:04 PM »
Anyway, I shoot f4 and set the minimum shutter speed to 1/1600 and I'm fine... and that's with hauling over ten pounds. I guess if you're shooting in bad light you have to be more careful. If you drink too much coffee, maybe you should consider a different camera.

I do in fact drink too much coffee, but when shooting with IS glass and the 7D - which has even more pixel density than the D800 - I've found that the old 1x the reciprocal of the focal length rule is plenty for sharp images. This isn't the best example, or image for that matter, but I shot this at a 1/15 shutter speed out the back of a bouncy truck on a very bumpy road at 24mm. So once you take the crop factor into account, the shutter speed is 1/2 to 1/3x the reciprocal of the focal length. Sure it's not the most demanding subject in terms of gauging sharpness, but I had a hunch that recommending a shutter speed 3x faster than normal sounded a bit fishy.


risc32

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2012, 10:18:42 PM »
"In effect, what this means that even a photo of a blue sky and beach (no shadows or anything) is going to be cleaner on the D800 than the 5D3, even if the signal drowns it out."


Aren't you saying this is a problem, and it's in every picture? While I do have more Canon gear than other makes right now, I'm no fan boy. They have been on the back foot with Nikon since the D3. After a week or using my mk3 i've pulled the fuji 6x9 off the shelf. Or maybe i should use my pentax, graflex, or panasonic, or...

I think this competition is great. that sensor is great. Sure i see the shadow noise in these comparisons. it's an order of magnitude better on the nikon. Cool, I want that. Get to it Canon.

I can't help but wonder, once Sony gets a tighter grip on the market, would you want to be Nikon?

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2012, 10:18:42 PM »