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Author Topic: Canon 7D vs Canon 60D - Can't decide which to upgrade to.  (Read 43135 times)

Tcapp

  • EOS 7D Mark II
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Re: Canon 7D vs Canon 60D - Can't decide which to upgrade to.
« Reply #75 on: May 05, 2012, 03:00:01 PM »
Brian, I know how much you love FF cameras. And yes, I never owned a FF, but I know enough people who own FF and who are amazing photographers. However, do their ISO 100 - 400 pictures look much better than mine? Only when they have a better composition,

They have an easier time obtaining shallow depth of field. An f/2.8 zoom on full frame has comparable depth of field to an f/1.8 prime with the same field of view. For portrait shots, this is important.

Quote
but in general it's very hard to distinguish a modern crop from a FF in good light. Yes, in low light a crop will have no chance compared to a FF. But then the question is why don't you use MF or even 4'x5' film?

Full frame is your best choice for shooting in low light. Current versions of MF cameras don't go past ISO1600 at all and to get the most out of them you really want to shoot at low ISO. They are designed for producing gallery size prints, not low light shooting. Same with film -- what type of film performs well at ISO6400 ?

Quote
However, and coming back to the topic - it is as true that for action the 5D II (which has an AF comparable to the 450D not the 60D) can't hold a candle to the 7D. Of course, if you are the perfect photographer and use MF on action shots and get everything right you still will get good pictures,

The 5DII does have a servo mode. It might not be as good as that on the 7D, but it is quite a bit better than manual focus.

Quote
but the 7D will have more keepers and get more interesting moments because of the highly superior burst rate. And not everyone wants everything centered in the picture (of course I can crop in post production, but with a 7D I can use an outer AF point and still have great performance).

The outer focus points are reasonably usable in one shot mode, especially if you are working with decent light. There is also focus and recompose, of course. Most of the cropping I do with my 5D shots is to make post hoc revisions to composition. But I do not find that the AF system dictates my composition, when I need to make such revisions, it's either because I made an error, or because I was unable to get the composition I wanted (e.g. distance limited)

Quote
I bet that a pro with a 7D will get much superior sports pictures than a pro with a 5D II.

Sure, I don't think anyone is claiming that the 5D is a sports camera.

Quote
So, in the end I still believe that these cameras have different target audiences - 5D II for studio/portraits and 7D for sports/ birds/ moving animals/ moving kids...

You keep hammering away at this fallacy that the 5D is only usable for subjects that are either stationary or posing, but there are huge numbers of 5D series users photographing weddings and family pictures who would beg to differ.

For example, with kid shots -- you might get fewer keepers with a 5D series camera, but the keepers you get will be priceless. Again, having control over depth of field is very useful, especially shooting in busy (uncontrolled)  environments where you can't stage the background to your liking. 

And while kids do move around a lot, they also do sit still (sometimes), and when they are moving, they are not always running directly at the camera. The only knock against using a camera like the 5DII for taking shots of your kids is that it does perhaps seem like a massive overkill for that task.

My thoughts exactly.
5DIII, 5DII, 7D, 50 1.4, 85 1.4, 70-200 2.8 IS L, 70-200 2.8 IS L II, 2x TC III, 15 Fisheye 2.8, 100 Macro 2.8, 24 1.4 L
http://www.TimothyCapp.com
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Re: Canon 7D vs Canon 60D - Can't decide which to upgrade to.
« Reply #75 on: May 05, 2012, 03:00:01 PM »

briansquibb

  • Guest
Re: Canon 7D vs Canon 60D - Can't decide which to upgrade to.
« Reply #76 on: May 05, 2012, 05:07:51 PM »
Brian, I know how much you love FF cameras. And yes, I never owned a FF, but I know enough people who own FF and who are amazing photographers. However, do their ISO 100 - 400 pictures look much better than mine? Only when they have a better composition,

They have an easier time obtaining shallow depth of field. An f/2.8 zoom on full frame has comparable depth of field to an f/1.8 prime with the same field of view. For portrait shots, this is important.

Quote
but in general it's very hard to distinguish a modern crop from a FF in good light. Yes, in low light a crop will have no chance compared to a FF. But then the question is why don't you use MF or even 4'x5' film?

Full frame is your best choice for shooting in low light. Current versions of MF cameras don't go past ISO1600 at all and to get the most out of them you really want to shoot at low ISO. They are designed for producing gallery size prints, not low light shooting. Same with film -- what type of film performs well at ISO6400 ?

Quote
However, and coming back to the topic - it is as true that for action the 5D II (which has an AF comparable to the 450D not the 60D) can't hold a candle to the 7D. Of course, if you are the perfect photographer and use MF on action shots and get everything right you still will get good pictures,

The 5DII does have a servo mode. It might not be as good as that on the 7D, but it is quite a bit better than manual focus.

Quote
but the 7D will have more keepers and get more interesting moments because of the highly superior burst rate. And not everyone wants everything centered in the picture (of course I can crop in post production, but with a 7D I can use an outer AF point and still have great performance).

The outer focus points are reasonably usable in one shot mode, especially if you are working with decent light. There is also focus and recompose, of course. Most of the cropping I do with my 5D shots is to make post hoc revisions to composition. But I do not find that the AF system dictates my composition, when I need to make such revisions, it's either because I made an error, or because I was unable to get the composition I wanted (e.g. distance limited)

Quote
I bet that a pro with a 7D will get much superior sports pictures than a pro with a 5D II.

Sure, I don't think anyone is claiming that the 5D is a sports camera.

Quote
So, in the end I still believe that these cameras have different target audiences - 5D II for studio/portraits and 7D for sports/ birds/ moving animals/ moving kids...

You keep hammering away at this fallacy that the 5D is only usable for subjects that are either stationary or posing, but there are huge numbers of 5D series users photographing weddings and family pictures who would beg to differ.

For example, with kid shots -- you might get fewer keepers with a 5D series camera, but the keepers you get will be priceless. Again, having control over depth of field is very useful, especially shooting in busy (uncontrolled)  environments where you can't stage the background to your liking. 

And while kids do move around a lot, they also do sit still (sometimes), and when they are moving, they are not always running directly at the camera. The only knock against using a camera like the 5DII for taking shots of your kids is that it does perhaps seem like a massive overkill for that task.

+1 I had two great years with the 5DII and 1 year with the 5Dc

Now moved on to the 1DS3 which better features than the 7D (for AF) and the 5DII (for IQ).

I still have the 7D and it is a handy little camera - especially in good light.

Here is a picture from this morning to whet your appetite :D

!Xabbu

  • Guest
Re: Canon 7D vs Canon 60D - Can't decide which to upgrade to.
« Reply #77 on: May 06, 2012, 01:14:21 AM »
It somewhat seems like you FF-guys are like creationists. If someone questions your "FF is better in every condition" religion you seem to forget the facts. I try it one more time.

Brian, I know how much you love FF cameras. And yes, I never owned a FF, but I know enough people who own FF and who are amazing photographers. However, do their ISO 100 - 400 pictures look much better than mine? Only when they have a better composition,

They have an easier time obtaining shallow depth of field. An f/2.8 zoom on full frame has comparable depth of field to an f/1.8 prime with the same field of view. For portrait shots, this is important.

OK, I pretty clearly stated in my post that the 5D II is the better camera for portraits. So, I don't know why you think you have to repeat it. MF is probably the best choice for portrait. So, if you're a portrait only photographer, MF might be the way to go.

However, and coming back to the topic - it is as true that for action the 5D II (which has an AF comparable to the 450D not the 60D) can't hold a candle to the 7D. Of course, if you are the perfect photographer and use MF on action shots and get everything right you still will get good pictures,

The 5DII does have a servo mode. It might not be as good as that on the 7D, but it is quite a bit better than manual focus.

Quote
but the 7D will have more keepers and get more interesting moments because of the highly superior burst rate. And not everyone wants everything centered in the picture (of course I can crop in post production, but with a 7D I can use an outer AF point and still have great performance).

The outer focus points are reasonably usable in one shot mode, especially if you are working with decent light. There is also focus and recompose, of course. Most of the cropping I do with my 5D shots is to make post hoc revisions to composition. But I do not find that the AF system dictates my composition, when I need to make such revisions, it's either because I made an error, or because I was unable to get the composition I wanted (e.g. distance limited)

The 5D II has a servo mode, which is nowhere as good as the 7D's. This means that two photographers with the same capabilities will get more in focus shots with the 7D. Sounds to me like the 7D is the better choice in these conditions.
The outer focus points are fine for non moving objects on the 5D II, but I was speaking about action shots, where you still might to have an off center composition - again the 7D will give you much more flexibility.

You keep hammering away at this fallacy that the 5D is only usable for subjects that are either stationary or posing, but there are huge numbers of 5D series users photographing weddings and family pictures who would beg to differ.

For example, with kid shots -- you might get fewer keepers with a 5D series camera, but the keepers you get will be priceless. Again, having control over depth of field is very useful, especially shooting in busy (uncontrolled)  environments where you can't stage the background to your liking. 

And while kids do move around a lot, they also do sit still (sometimes), and when they are moving, they are not always running directly at the camera. The only knock against using a camera like the 5DII for taking shots of your kids is that it does perhaps seem like a massive overkill for that task.

Please show me where I said that the 5D is only usable for non-moving subjects. I just said that these cameras target different audiences. If someone shoots mainly sports or animals, he will most likely be happier with a 7D than with a 5D II. However, if someone is mainly into studio or portrait, he will be much better of with the 5D II.
I do believe that both cameras are capable of the other use, but they have their shortcomings - i.e. you can use a 7D as a studio camera and get good results and of course you can use a 5D II as a sports camera and get good results.

Tcapp

  • EOS 7D Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 506
    • Timothy Capp Photography
Re: Canon 7D vs Canon 60D - Can't decide which to upgrade to.
« Reply #78 on: May 06, 2012, 01:24:43 AM »
It somewhat seems like you FF-guys are like creationists. If someone questions your "FF is better in every condition" religion you seem to forget the facts. I try it one more time.

Brian, I know how much you love FF cameras. And yes, I never owned a FF, but I know enough people who own FF and who are amazing photographers. However, do their ISO 100 - 400 pictures look much better than mine? Only when they have a better composition,

They have an easier time obtaining shallow depth of field. An f/2.8 zoom on full frame has comparable depth of field to an f/1.8 prime with the same field of view. For portrait shots, this is important.

OK, I pretty clearly stated in my post that the 5D II is the better camera for portraits. So, I don't know why you think you have to repeat it. MF is probably the best choice for portrait. So, if you're a portrait only photographer, MF might be the way to go.

However, and coming back to the topic - it is as true that for action the 5D II (which has an AF comparable to the 450D not the 60D) can't hold a candle to the 7D. Of course, if you are the perfect photographer and use MF on action shots and get everything right you still will get good pictures,

The 5DII does have a servo mode. It might not be as good as that on the 7D, but it is quite a bit better than manual focus.

Quote
but the 7D will have more keepers and get more interesting moments because of the highly superior burst rate. And not everyone wants everything centered in the picture (of course I can crop in post production, but with a 7D I can use an outer AF point and still have great performance).

The outer focus points are reasonably usable in one shot mode, especially if you are working with decent light. There is also focus and recompose, of course. Most of the cropping I do with my 5D shots is to make post hoc revisions to composition. But I do not find that the AF system dictates my composition, when I need to make such revisions, it's either because I made an error, or because I was unable to get the composition I wanted (e.g. distance limited)

The 5D II has a servo mode, which is nowhere as good as the 7D's. This means that two photographers with the same capabilities will get more in focus shots with the 7D. Sounds to me like the 7D is the better choice in these conditions.
The outer focus points are fine for non moving objects on the 5D II, but I was speaking about action shots, where you still might to have an off center composition - again the 7D will give you much more flexibility.

You keep hammering away at this fallacy that the 5D is only usable for subjects that are either stationary or posing, but there are huge numbers of 5D series users photographing weddings and family pictures who would beg to differ.

For example, with kid shots -- you might get fewer keepers with a 5D series camera, but the keepers you get will be priceless. Again, having control over depth of field is very useful, especially shooting in busy (uncontrolled)  environments where you can't stage the background to your liking. 

And while kids do move around a lot, they also do sit still (sometimes), and when they are moving, they are not always running directly at the camera. The only knock against using a camera like the 5DII for taking shots of your kids is that it does perhaps seem like a massive overkill for that task.

Please show me where I said that the 5D is only usable for non-moving subjects. I just said that these cameras target different audiences. If someone shoots mainly sports or animals, he will most likely be happier with a 7D than with a 5D II. However, if someone is mainly into studio or portrait, he will be much better of with the 5D II.
I do believe that both cameras are capable of the other use, but they have their shortcomings - i.e. you can use a 7D as a studio camera and get good results and of course you can use a 5D II as a sports camera and get good results.

I think our friend elflord was just trying to get the facts out there without confusing the thousand amateurs who are reading this and might not know. You are correct that the 7d is great for action.

I think if we say the 7d is easier to use in just about any situation, and the 5d2 has better image quality in just about any situation, no one can argue that. All settled. :)
5DIII, 5DII, 7D, 50 1.4, 85 1.4, 70-200 2.8 IS L, 70-200 2.8 IS L II, 2x TC III, 15 Fisheye 2.8, 100 Macro 2.8, 24 1.4 L
http://www.TimothyCapp.com
Follow me on facebook! https://www.facebook.com/pages/Timothy-Capp-Photography/94664798952

briansquibb

  • Guest
Re: Canon 7D vs Canon 60D - Can't decide which to upgrade to.
« Reply #79 on: May 06, 2012, 03:21:23 AM »
It somewhat seems like you FF-guys are like creationists. If someone questions your "FF is better in every condition" religion you seem to forget the facts. I try it one more time.


ff only relates to the image from the sensor

It is the camera that takes the picture.

Look at my equipment line to see which technology I prefer.


elflord

  • EOS 5D Mark IV
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  • Posts: 693
Re: Canon 7D vs Canon 60D - Can't decide which to upgrade to.
« Reply #80 on: May 06, 2012, 09:10:29 AM »
Quote
It somewhat seems like you FF-guys are like creationists. If someone questions your "FF is better in every condition" religion you seem to forget the facts. I try it one more time.

My comments are based not on "religion" but on experience using full frame cameras. Your comments on the usability of the 5D Mark II appear to be based on some kind of extrapolation from familiarity with a Rebel body. Commenting on the usability of something that you haven't used puts you on really shaky ground (the 5D is quite a bit more usable than the Rebel)

Please show me where I said that the 5D is only usable for non-moving subjects. I just said that these cameras target different audiences.

You wrote "5D II for studio/portraits and 7D for sports/ birds/ moving animals/ moving kids... ".  Someone reading your post would have taken away the message that the 5DII is only suitable for posed or inanimate subjects. If you mentioned that the 5DII was also a great camera for family photography, weddings,  and events, I would not have taken issue with it.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 09:26:46 AM by elflord »

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Re: Canon 7D vs Canon 60D - Can't decide which to upgrade to.
« Reply #80 on: May 06, 2012, 09:10:29 AM »