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Author Topic: Canon did everything it could in 5D3  (Read 8874 times)

dilbert

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Re: Canon did everything it could in 5D3
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2012, 01:32:49 PM »
I disagree.

I believe they made a series of decisions about hardware for the camera that turned out to be bad choices.

1) Rather than use a newer sensor design, they've used a "fixed 5D2" sensor (or at least that is what it seems like)

2) Rather than use newer video hardware, they've used hardware that provides the same video support as the 5D2

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Re: Canon did everything it could in 5D3
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2012, 01:32:49 PM »

pete vella

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Re: Canon did everything it could in 5D3
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2012, 12:49:52 AM »
I think canon did the best they could. the big debate over the sensor tech is not the mp but the way it handles shadows. sony sensor had to be designed to give great shadow detail becuase of the loss of light from the fixed mirror in the slt cameras. no other dslr ever had to deal with that kinda light loss. that why the sony sensor handles light the way it does. its a good thing for us because now canon has to improve to compete. I have a strange feeling thats why the 1dx was delayed. a top of the line camera has to be just that. and at the 1000 premuim over the d4 a frame or two per second over low iso dr lower read noise issue is not gunna cut it. the 1dx should been in the hand of the pros that are going to use it in the olypics by now. thats why the af manuals are already printed.
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« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 12:51:46 AM by pete vella »

peederj

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Re: Canon did everything it could in 5D3
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2012, 01:11:51 AM »
They gave it good AF and other decent stills things, but they purposefully crippled the video and there's no getting around that fact. This could have been the definitive 1080p cine camera, but they felt their oats and launched a whole cine division of underpowered, overpriced beauty queens instead. Over the next year they will have their heads handed to them and no one in film will even think about them anymore. This is the punishment for having low IQ managers lording over high IQ staff, soon to depart.

stevenrrmanir

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Re: Canon did everything it could in 5D3
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2012, 01:59:22 AM »
I do not think so. I am sick and tired of seeing incremental upgrades... they like to milk as much as possible!

Radiating

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Re: Canon did everything it could in 5D3
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2012, 02:30:55 AM »
I sincerely believe that Canon did everything it could to 5D3. Its AF is dramatically improved, its body is improved, and its shooting is improved. There is no question that if Canon had improved sensor, they would have made it part of 5D3. So, if/when Canon has a modern sensor, it will make it part of 5D4 or 5D5.

Canon just does not have a modern sensor or technology for the price point, thus 5D3 had to be content with 5D2 sensor.

That above was our conclusion and the factor in not completely switching to Nikon. We will hang on to our Canon gears (lenses and flashes mostly) for a year or two.

After talking to a lot of Canon insiders I have to disagree with your statement.

The 5D Mark III was in development and ready for a long time. They delayed the release for a long time to make sure 5D Mark II stocks were really low so they didn't have to lower the price. They also didn't put their best pixels in the camera. The G1X is about a quarter stop better in ISO and has an even better AA filter. The camera also received virtually unchanged video which is pretty much the same as the 5D2 so they could start selling their 16k video cameras and 1Dc at a huge mark up. The camera was easily capable of twice the video throughput and even more with simple upgrades.

Canon built the camera for profit. Nikon built their camera to capture market share.

In the end Canon ended up with a camera that has better iso and similar or equal resolution (lens limited in most cases, according to both Canon's tech guys and many tests), and Nikon ended up with a camera that has better DR and can sometimes acheive 27% more resolution with the best primes between f/4.0-f/8.0.

If Canon built a camera to truely acheive epic performance and value it would have a third of a stop better ISO and much better video.


GL

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Re: Canon did everything it could in 5D3
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2012, 02:35:18 AM »
I do not think so. I am sick and tired of seeing incremental upgrades... they like to milk as much as possible!

Easy - just skip generations if you want bigger jumps. FWIW I think the 5D3 is anything but incremental - the sensor maybe, but the rest of te camera is like a 1-series at half the price. Nothing incremental about that.

GND

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Re: Canon did everything it could in 5D3
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2012, 03:58:31 AM »
Supposed dDLR megapixel roadmap:
 36MP: Sonikon, 02.2012 <CR3>
 40Mp: Canon, 09.2012 (EOS-5Dx) <CR2>
 50Mp: Canon, 2014 (EOS-3D)
 60Mp: Sonikon, 2014
 60Mp: Canon, 2016 (Olympic year)
100Mp: Sonikon, 2019 (D-1000, solar powered)
120Mp: Canon, 2020 (cost GBP2020, green body), iPhone 14 released 22Mp with panoramic function
End of dSLR as we know it.

So, the sensor story has roughly 8 more years life. Meanwhile, people realize nearly everything has been photographed so they switch to iPhone.

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Re: Canon did everything it could in 5D3
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2012, 03:58:31 AM »

Woody

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Re: Canon did everything it could in 5D3
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2012, 05:00:37 AM »
Just a note about the 7D sensor.

When the 7D was first announced in 2009, its main competition was the D300. If we compare the sensors in both cameras, the 7D simply blew the D300 away. DPReview described the sensor as 'class leading' and this is supported by DXOMark test results (ignore their silly overall scores).

Fast-forward to 2012: we now have the 5D3 vs D800 sensors. I expected 5D3 to make huge strides in terms of low ISO dynamic range, but Canon made no improvement whatsoever. I don't think many people are too bothered by its lower pixel count vs D800, but the lack of progress in the dynamic range department is rather disappointing, to say the least. Now, if the DPReview early preview test shots for Olympus E-M5 are any indication, it looks like Olympus has achieved the kind of progress one expects from modern sensors these days. I guess this is why many people feel let down by current Canon sensors.

Having said all that, when I needed a FF camera recently, I looked for a few things: optical viewfinder quality, excellent high ISO performance, reliable AF in low light. So, in my book, the 5D3 delivered.

Addendum:
Just some evidence of Canon's successful sales and marketing departments in China, the world's largest market for high-end cameras. From http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2012-04/22/c_131543148.htm

"Although professional cameras are more expensive in China than in other countries, China has a faster growth rate compared with developed economies such as the United States and Japan.

China has already become the largest market for selling our latest high-end camera 5D Mark III, which started to sell last month and has almost sold out now...

High-end digital single lens reflex cameras account for about 50 percent of the total sales of all Canon cameras in China, which is much bigger than other countries..."

Canon clearly knows what they're doing.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 05:09:36 AM by Woody »

AvTvM

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Re: Canon did everything it could in 5D3
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2012, 07:12:48 AM »
Canon is the master of intensely annoying "market differentiation" - meaning crippling of camera features for pure marketing speculations, which most of the time turn out to be dead wrong and are costing them market share.

In addition Canon has a very real and serious problem in their CMOS sensor development as far as dark noise is concerned. Their apparent incompetence in this area significantly degrades DR performance of all their cameras compared to recent Nikon/Sony sensor technology, who have been achieving breakthrough after breakthrough since the D3 and D3s.

5D3 is exactly what the 5D2 should have been from the start. Not less, but certainly not more. 5D3 pricing is way to high, even though initial demand is reasonably strong, driven by many upgrade-happy users pissed off with the 5D2's totally inadequate AF-system and helped by Nikon's inability to properly supply the market with product.

tomscott

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Re: Canon did everything it could in 5D3
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2012, 07:22:30 AM »

In terms of whether they did everything they could. Nope. The camera is an homologation of used parts, put together to create not only a great camera but also to do it cheaply. The profit on these cameras will be really good I assume, the cost of R&D on this camera is minimal, slightly updated sensor to keep the frame rate up and slight improvement to noise and DR, AF system moved from 1DX, body does have some ergonomic changes which is nice and a little more weather sealing. They just raided the parts bin instead of truly innovating this product which is fine by me, but for a £1000 premium... kind of annoying but what do you do?

I'm not sure I would consider a COMPLETELY new AF system that's only on TWO cameras "used parts", especially when it beat the camera it was "taken" from to market.  How many people would have loved to have had the "used" AF system out of the 1DsMKIII in the 5DMKII?  Hell, I know I would have.  Almost EVERY manufacturer shares parts across products.  Go look at almost any brand of vehicle in different models and you'll see things like steering wheels, control knobs, door handles and engines being used across multiple platforms.

You misinterpret what I mean, I meant that the AF wasn't designed specifically for the 5D MKIII it was designed for the 1DX and it has borrowed it. Which is fine. What I was meaning was the R&D isnt extreme because they have recycled tech, the AF is amazing and I welcome it but the overall point being the tech already existed yet we pay an extra £1000 premium over the 5D MKII. There is a lot of profit in this camera for Canon because it is not unique tech.
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Re: Canon did everything it could in 5D3
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2012, 07:28:11 AM »
Maybe they did what they could technically,
BUt NOT financially- THE PRICE, they could/can do a loooot better
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon did everything it could in 5D3
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2012, 09:18:42 AM »
Canon is the master of intensely annoying "market differentiation" - meaning crippling of camera features for pure marketing speculations, which most of the time turn out to be dead wrong and are costing them market share.

Why do people make statements like this?  What makes you think it is costing them market share, and more importantly, do you have any data to back that up?  The availbale data show that Canon's market share for dSLRs has been increasing for the past several years.  So by the relevant objective measure, Canon is doing things right, not 'dead wrong'. 
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peederj

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Re: Canon did everything it could in 5D3
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2012, 09:40:36 AM »
What generally happens with companies employing crippleware strategies is the competition catches up without crippling. And all the opinion leaders who learned enough about the systems to identify the crippling loudly proclaim the competitive entrant and make a lot of noise in that direction. The lumbering giant then finally decripples (usually doesn't price slash, that would humiliate the faithful) thinking it was time to play the ace they had been holding back. At that point, we enter a world like that of cars: the giant may still have a few advantages left from economies of scale and depth of staff, but the upstarts are all established and legit and the choice becomes a matter of politics, style, and price. The giant slowly erodes in stature as they are too slow to respond to the fickleness of an open market.

And it all could have been avoided with the tolerance of a little cannibalism. The giant could have completely prevented the establishment of competition and maintained an effective monopoly indefinitely. Which may have been worse for the customer in the long run. Indeed, the staff themselves may be crippling their own employer, knowing that creating an opening for competitors to flourish will provide for their own job security and negotiation power.

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Re: Canon did everything it could in 5D3
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2012, 09:40:36 AM »

Neeneko

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Re: Canon did everything it could in 5D3
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2012, 09:42:43 AM »
Why do people make statements like this?  What makes you think it is costing them market share, and moreimportantly, do you have any data to back that up?  The availbale data show that Canon's market share for dSLRs has been increasing for the past several years.  So by the relevant objective measure, Canon is doing things right, not 'dead wrong'.

That was my thought....
I agreed with the first part, and am often annoyed by Canon's approach to the market.  However I full admit that it has been very profitable for them.  The segment I am part of is an edge case, I get grumpy that only niche players with small capacity and high prices cater to it, and I wish companies with the volume to bring prices down would pay more attention to us.... so I am often frustrated that companies like Canon will not even try..... but I acknowledge that their groove has worked for them.

Though there is probably market that they COULD exploit that they currently are not.  They have been heavily focusing on a few areas and, if not for glass investment and brand loyalty they probably would be loosing a lot more people.  That will probably be the real risk to them from the mirrorless segment... once it gets fleshed out better and has a wider range of bodies including high end ones, the ability to put any glass on them could really start hurting Canon.

AvTvM

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Re: Canon did everything it could in 5D3
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2012, 09:49:21 AM »
Canon is the master of intensely annoying "market differentiation" - meaning crippling of camera features for pure marketing speculations, which most of the time turn out to be dead wrong and are costing them market share.

Why do people make statements like this?  What makes you think it is costing them market share, and more importantly, do you have any data to back that up?  The availbale data show that Canon's market share for dSLRs has been increasing for the past several years.  So by the relevant objective measure, Canon is doing things right, not 'dead wrong'.

market share data I know, shows the opposite. Nikon and SOny have taken a lot of DSLR-market away from Canon over the past 6-7 years.

Why is Canon dead wrong? They could have built on their early DSLR-dominance. You may remember, that once upon a time their CMOS sensors were way better, especially at hi-ISO than anything else on the market! They totally squandered that and are WORSE today than competitors.

Had they focused on selling the very best cameras in  every market segment - best sensor and all the best photographic features, no holds barred ... they would completely OWN the entire DSLR market by now and Nikon would be in bankrupcy by now!

Sepcifically, Canon F_____ up when they

* brought the measly 50D instead of the 7D  ... that would have killed Nikon's immense success with the D300
* brought the 5D2 with 1Ds III AF-system - that would have killed Nikons D700 immediately
* brought the 1D IV instead of the ill-fated 1D III ... that would have stopped the D3/s in its tracks
* sold the 1Ds III for a reasonable 4k ... that would have killed the D3x
* stuck their video crap into video cams  ... Cxxx cameras from 1k to 20 k ... all available with EF-mount. Those Video types did not buy the 5D2 and 7D BECAUSE of their love for vpoorly video-suited DSLRs. They bought them solely for one reason: because no similarly decent videcam [e.g. a C100 or whatever] @ 1k and 2.5 k USD was available on the market!

BUT ... what did Canon do? Eyery step of the way only the BARE MINIMUM, always TOO LITTLE, TOO LATE. Always obsessed with "cannibalization" ... and ALWAYS full-bore marketing-differentiation, criplling "lowly" camera bodies and denying them readily available useful photographic features - irrespective of whether this would have helped them to capture market share from competitors. Always nickling and diming clients. Making them upgarde to a same-sensor camera just to get a decent  AF-system. Or charging them extra for hard to get lens shades instead of throwing those 1$ production cost items into the box like all reasonable competitors do!

All of this is why Nikon is back stronger than ever and why Canon has been losing market share all along.
All of this is why I more and more had it with Canon and will likely switch to Nikon once I move to FF.

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Re: Canon did everything it could in 5D3
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2012, 09:49:21 AM »