Canon Rebel T4i [CR2]

[Rodknee]

In the UK they are now re-running TV adverts for the Canon 650d including £50 cashback, this rebate scheme runs until June. If they are spending money on TV adverts then I can't see the T4i/650D coming out anytime soon. UNLESS it is so different to the 600D that it is in a different market segment which seems very, very unlikely even if they have created room in their range by making the 5D mkiii so much more expensive.

[c3hammer]

..T4i - 20-22MP conventional sensor.
4fps
Continuous electronic (windowed) zoom in video activated by P&S-inspired zoom switch at the shutter release
Continuous video AF
1080/60p video option, 720/120p, 640/240p, 320/480p.
Smallest possible body, ergonomics be-damned.
T/S LCD
$799 body only/$899 with 18-55IS kit lens

Lee Jay, if they could pull that cat out of the bag it will be game over for Sony and Nikon again.

Canon just doesn't seem like the type to add that much in one go.  Here's hoping still though.  I use my T3i for video mostly and all those features are on my hit list and I'd be the first in line to preorder if it has the Digic5, a new sensor and 1080/60p.

Cheers,
Pete

[Albi86]

Canon is providing a 650D before a new 60D/7D for 2 reasons:
- Consumers are the biggest segment of market
- Canon 1100D cannot compete with Nikon D3200

Basically Canon can't let Nikon win that easily in this segment, so the rush for a new, competitive, product.

That said, I would not expect any major improvement over the 600D except for Digic5 and maybe a few MP (21 is my bet). It will be just enough to keep the competition alive. We could have the 19-points AF fromt the 7D, but only if Canon plans to use the new 5D3 AF's scheme (or something similar) in the upper segment APS-C cameras. It also depends on where in the price scale this camera will be placed. I bet slightly above the D3200, with the 600D sinking slightly below.

[!Xabbu]

That said, I would not expect any major improvement over the 600D except for Digic5 and maybe a few MP (21 is my bet). It will be just enough to keep the competition alive. We could have the 19-points AF fromt the 7D, but only if Canon plans to use the new 5D3 AF's scheme (or something similar) in the upper segment APS-C cameras. It also depends on where in the price scale this camera will be placed. I bet slightly above the D3200, with the 600D sinking slightly below.

You wouldn't expect any major improvement, but in the same sentence you say that the 19-point AF could be a possibility? That would catapult the 650D above the 60D. One of the big distinctions between 600D, 60D and 7D is their AF system.

I guess this is as probable as the mentioned "New 5DIII-inspired AF with at least one f/8 AF point in the center and 4 helper f/8 AF points around it" for the 7D II. This would essentially be the best AF system Canon ever built and they would never introduce this in an APS-C camera...

[Albi86]

That said, I would not expect any major improvement over the 600D except for Digic5 and maybe a few MP (21 is my bet). It will be just enough to keep the competition alive. We could have the 19-points AF fromt the 7D, but only if Canon plans to use the new 5D3 AF's scheme (or something similar) in the upper segment APS-C cameras. It also depends on where in the price scale this camera will be placed. I bet slightly above the D3200, with the 600D sinking slightly below.

You wouldn't expect any major improvement, but in the same sentence you say that the 19-point AF could be a possibility? That would catapult the 650D above the 60D. One of the big distinctions between 600D, 60D and 7D is their AF system.

I guess this is as probable as the mentioned "New 5DIII-inspired AF with at least one f/8 AF point in the center and 4 helper f/8 AF points around it" for the 7D II. This would essentially be the best AF system Canon ever built and they would never introduce this in an APS-C camera...

Compared to the 5D3's AF, the 7D's 19-points looks ridiculous. The upper tier of APS-C cameras MUST feature at least a 30-40 points AF. Actually the 7D has a better AF than the 5D2, so why a new 7D should have a worse AF than the 5D3? Nikon D7000 has already a 39-points AF with 9 cross-type points, and it's not the newset camera around nor the most expensive. If the market standards rise up, also mid-tier cameras will benefit of it. But as I said, it depends on Canon's plans for the upper tier.

Furthermore, 60D and 7D are clearly at the end of their life cycle. The Digic5 alone would require a refresh in that segment. Whenever a new technology becomes available, companies has to implement it in their high-end products or they will be not that "high-end" any more. The 60Da and the new 7D firmware look a lot to me like the last breaths of these bodies.

[moreorless]

Compared to the 5D3's AF, the 7D's 19-points looks ridiculous. The upper tier of APS-C cameras MUST feature at least a 30-40 points AF. Actually the 7D has a better AF than the 5D2, so why a new 7D should have a worse AF than the 5D3? Nikon D7000 has already a 39-points AF with 9 cross-type points, and it's not the newset camera around nor the most expensive. If the market standards rise up, also mid-tier cameras will benefit of it. But as I said, it depends on Canon's plans for the upper tier.

Furthermore, 60D and 7D are clearly at the end of their life cycle. The Digic5 alone would require a refresh in that segment. Whenever a new technology becomes available, companies has to implement it in their high-end products or they will be not that "high-end" any more. The 60Da and the new 7D firmware look a lot to me like the last breaths of these bodies.

His first point was just that you considered 7D AF to be a minor upgrade to the xxxD line when it would argeubley be the largest upgrade in the lines entire history. Add in a new 21 MP sensor and I'd say thats about as far from "just keeping the line alive" as you can get.

As far as the 7D mk2's potential AF's goes remember that such a system would not just outgun the 5D mk3 but also the 1DX. Remember aswell that the 5D mk3 has moved up in the market, we don't know that the 7D mk2 will do the same (if its even released) although if it did I'm guessing that higher FPS would be its main spec beyond the 5D mk3.

[Albi86]

Compared to the 5D3's AF, the 7D's 19-points looks ridiculous. The upper tier of APS-C cameras MUST feature at least a 30-40 points AF. Actually the 7D has a better AF than the 5D2, so why a new 7D should have a worse AF than the 5D3? Nikon D7000 has already a 39-points AF with 9 cross-type points, and it's not the newset camera around nor the most expensive. If the market standards rise up, also mid-tier cameras will benefit of it. But as I said, it depends on Canon's plans for the upper tier.

Furthermore, 60D and 7D are clearly at the end of their life cycle. The Digic5 alone would require a refresh in that segment. Whenever a new technology becomes available, companies has to implement it in their high-end products or they will be not that "high-end" any more. The 60Da and the new 7D firmware look a lot to me like the last breaths of these bodies.

His first point was just that you considered 7D AF to be a minor upgrade to the xxxD line when it would argeubley be the largest upgrade in the lines entire history. Add in a new 21 MP sensor and I'd say thats about as far from "just keeping the line alive" as you can get.

As far as the 7D mk2's potential AF's goes remember that such a system would not just outgun the 5D mk3 but also the 1DX. Remember aswell that the 5D mk3 has moved up in the market, we don't know that the 7D mk2 will do the same (if its even released) although if it did I'm guessing that higher FPS would be its main spec beyond the 5D mk3.

I'm sorry it sounded that way, what I meant is that the 650D could replace the 60D line, so that there will be just one high-end APS-C above it. Basically how it was in the past with the 50D. I realize just now that I thought it but didn't write
A 600D costs around 550€ while a 60D costs around 750€, I don't know if it's so likely to have a 650D at 650€ or so. As there have been voices of a merge between 60D and 7D, I would not be surprised if the 650D is the new intended prosumer flagship at around 800-900€, leaving room for a 1200€+ professional APS-C and a 1800€+ entry level FF.

However, whatever the top APS-C will be, I do not expect it to be much inferior (if any) to the 5D3 as far as specs are concerned. So a 19-points AF in the lower segment would sound possible.

[Marsu42]

However, whatever the top APS-C will be, I do not expect it to be much inferior (if any) to the 5D3 as far as specs are concerned. So a 19-points AF in the lower segment would sound possible.

This would mean that Canon would plan to keep aps-c dlsrs alive along ff for those people who like the built-in teleconverter of crop sensors or have ef-s lenses. If this market segment is big enough, Canon might do just that. But my bet is still that they dump the 7d2, raise the 650d a bit above the mirrorless market, position the 70d with a better where the 50d used to be and then make everything like the 5d2 successor (6d?) above that full frame.

This would be a sound strategy because ff sensors have a lot of potential in the future, while aps-c is close to being maxed out and in addition to that, good ef L lenses generate more revenue for Canon.

[Albi86]

D800 is quite a revolution in this sense. Til today APS-C had the reach advantage which allowed to have more pixels on subject, and this is also one reason why wildlife shooters picked the 7D sooner than the 5D2. But with 36MP you can easily crop half the picture away and still have a 18MP image.

But apart from this, APS-C will continue to be the biggest part of DSLR market, at least until we'll have consumer-priced FF cameras. I don't think this will happen any time before (at least) 10 years (if ever). So maybe it's the end of the professional APS-C segment, but I wouldn't swear on it either.

[moreorless]

However, whatever the top APS-C will be, I do not expect it to be much inferior (if any) to the 5D3 as far as specs are concerned. So a 19-points AF in the lower segment would sound possible.

This would mean that Canon would plan to keep aps-c dlsrs alive along ff for those people who like the built-in teleconverter of crop sensors or have ef-s lenses. If this market segment is big enough, Canon might do just that. But my bet is still that they dump the 7d2, raise the 650d a bit above the mirrorless market, position the 70d with a better where the 50d used to be and then make everything like the 5d2 successor (6d?) above that full frame.

This would be a sound strategy because ff sensors have a lot of potential in the future, while aps-c is close to being maxed out and in addition to that, good ef L lenses generate more revenue for Canon.

ASPC makes up the vast majority of Canons DSLR sales so I think your rather premature in believe its on the way out.

Its an interesting idea that Canon might raise the xxxD line in the market a bit and position a mirrorless release below(maybe phasing out the xxxxD altogether?). If that were to happen having at least 7D AF on every DSLR would make sense, maximise the difference in AF performance and make it clear thats what your paying for over mirrorless.

[Marsu42]

ASPC makes up the vast majority of Canons DSLR sales so I think your rather premature in believe its on the way out.

A wise enterprise predicts future markets and reacts accordingly. Kodak had global domination of the analog film market, and when the tech changed maybe they thought too: "this makes up the vast majority of our sales, so why would it be on its way out?". And look what happened to Kodak.

Its an interesting idea that Canon might raise the xxxD line in the market a bit and position a mirrorless release below(maybe phasing out the xxxxD altogether?). If that were to happen having at least 7D AF on every DSLR would make sense, maximise the difference in AF performance and make it clear thats what your paying for over mirrorless.

Marketing-wise, it would be clever to reserve the xd name for full frame "I've got money and want to show it" bodies, along with red ring lenses - so xxd and xxx is for cheapos. And they certainly won't put the exact 7d af on xxxd bodies - Ken Rockwell would write it doesn't work right out of the box because there are so many options. But I think that more af fields might appear in the xxd line because that's what's the main problem with tracking on the 60d.

[Marine03]

Marketing-wise, it would be clever to reserve the xd name for full frame "I've got money and want to show it" bodies, along with red ring lenses - so xxd and xxx is for cheapos. And they certainly won't put the exact 7d af on xxxd bodies - Ken Rockwell would write it doesn't work right out of the box because there are so many options. But I think that more af fields might appear in the xxd line because that's what's the main problem with tracking on the 60d.

If the 7D2 never happens and mirrorless takes place basically of the XXXd entry line then the there is no harm is putting more AF points in all the camera's as long as its less than the 5D3.  I'm no math wiz but 19pts seems alot less than 63 in the high end camera's and is a good selling point over the competition or may still only have 10 pts or something.

[Dylan777]

I hope it has swivel screen & same 19pts focus as 7D or better. I need to get crop body to pair up with my 5D III.

[sandymandy]

- Canon 1100D cannot compete with Nikon D3200

D3200 Body only is 600 Euro, 1100D Body only is 330 Euro. Thats a big difference and i dont think D3200 is supposed to be the lowest entry level DSLR.

[Albi86]

- Canon 1100D cannot compete with Nikon D3200

D3200 Body only is 600 Euro, 1100D Body only is 330 Euro. Thats a big difference and i dont think D3200 is supposed to be the lowest entry level DSLR.

Just at the moment, imho.
The price will sink very quickly to about 500€, as traditionally the D3XXX is Nikon's entry level segment. It's meant to be between the 1100D and the 600D, sacking customers from both segments. You pay a little premium over the 1100D for a much better camera, you get a camera comparable (if not better, to some extent) to 600D for less money. Typical Nikon strategy, as seen with D7000. Quite effective too, if Canon felt the urge to release a 650D.
Just my guess, of course.