D800 v. 5D3 threads: What should Canon's takeaway be?

[docsmith]

Wow...I think I am in agreement with just about every post....

I doubt Canon will take away much.  Unless it begins to affect their sales or the select photographers that they listen too begin to say something.

What I would like Canon to take away is to reduce the read noise to give shadows as clean as the D800 and expand DR.  Hopefully that is as simple as improving the analog/digital converter.

[meli]

Canon has to be future proof: if the Mark III had the DR of the Sony Exmor what would they sell you in four years? A wise parent always reserves part of the presents for the next occasion...

well to a lot of canon people around here including me, they probably sell nothing at all for the next 4 years, how's that working for Canon? You can't really pick parents but sure as hell you can pick companies..

i wont be selling my Canon equipment anytime soon and I'm still shooting happily with my 5d2 but i will invest in D800 plus a couple of lenses.

[Canon-F1]

well to a lot of canon people around here including me, they probably sell nothing at all for the next 4 years, how's that working for Canon? .

lets wait and see... not all hope is lost.

[smirkypants]

There's nothing revolutionary in the 5D3. It's a very safe, very conservative camera. Having owned one for a couple of weeks, it really does feel almost exactly like owning a 7D with better IQ. There's nothing revolutionary about it. Canon needs to learn to push the envelope and to exceed expectations.

[pdirestajr]

There's nothing revolutionary in the 5D3. It's a very safe, very conservative camera. Having owned one for a couple of weeks, it really does feel almost exactly like owning a 7D with better IQ. There's nothing revolutionary about it. Canon needs to learn to push the envelope and to exceed expectations.

But since it is just an "update" of the 5D series (with LOTS of updates) why does it have to be revolutionary? Why can't it be what it is, a 5D refresh. And wouldn't incorporating the top of the line focusing system into a consumer camera count as a big deal?

The 5D is an incredibly successful sub-brand for Canon, it was & always will be revolutionary. Perhaps they will release a new brand to be revolutionary in a new way.

[!Xabbu]

Canon has to be future proof: if the Mark III had the DR of the Sony Exmor what would they sell you in four years? A wise parent always reserves part of the presents for the next occasion...

So, you think Sony won't improve their Exmor over the next four years? I'm pretty sure they will (unless they go bankrupt). From a pure technical standpoint it seems like Canon is about one generation behind in sensor technology and it will be damn hard to catch up. Just my 2 cents...

[smirkypants]

But since it is just an "update" of the 5D series (with LOTS of updates) why does it have to be revolutionary? Why can't it be what it is, a 5D refresh. And wouldn't incorporating the top of the line focusing system into a consumer camera count as a big deal?

Because it's $500 more than a machine that IS revolutionary and kicks its ass in almost every way.

[psolberg]

The takeaway should be that the low light race started back 2007 with the D3 and ended in 2009 with the D3s. It is a little too late to get into that saturated segment. Everybody has a low light camera (or more) these days. For 2012, the game is different.

The new race for the next generation of sensors is detail and dynamic range, color depth, possibly starting to step in to challenge medium format dominated 16 bit territory over the next few years. The D800 is Nikon's first step away from focusing on big ISO as a single metric of performance. Yet Canon is too busy playing with video and trying to wedge itself against Red and Sony so they were totally caught with their pants down.

Obviously Canon will follow Nikon's path away from higher than 102K ISO in time just as they followed Nikon in the low light game until that segment was saturated.

I think it is only a matter of time before Nikon jumps into Medium format. There were rumors of the Nikon's MX system flying around before the global recession even some leaked presentation. I wouldn't be surprised if they are dusting off those plans at this very moment. I suspect canon may consider medium format but I see them ore interested in turning all it's photographers into videographers somehow. so who knows.

[awinphoto]

But since it is just an "update" of the 5D series (with LOTS of updates) why does it have to be revolutionary? Why can't it be what it is, a 5D refresh. And wouldn't incorporating the top of the line focusing system into a consumer camera count as a big deal?

Because it's $500 more than a machine that IS revolutionary and kicks its ass in almost every way.

Um... i'll bite... are you insinuating that the 5d2 kicks the 5d3's ass in almost every way?  and if so, how?  If you are saying the 5d3 kicks the 5d2's ass, for a $500 premium, well duh..

[neuroanatomist]

Because it's $500 more than a machine that IS revolutionary and kicks its ass in almost every way.

Um... i'll bite... are you insinuating that the 5d2 kicks the 5d3's ass in almost every way?  and if so, how?  If you are saying the 5d3 kicks the 5d2's ass, for a $500 premium, well duh..

Seems pretty clear he was talking about the D800. 

[smirkypants]

Um... i'll bite... are you insinuating that the 5d2 kicks the 5d3's ass in almost every way?  and if so, how?  If you are saying the 5d3 kicks the 5d2's ass, for a $500 premium, well duh..

This thread is about what Canon should learn from the D800... err... situation. The D800 is better in almost every way and costs $500 less.

Canon could have built a 5D3 two years ago by combining elements of the 7D and the 5D2 and getting about 80% there. That machine that it could have built two years ago, if it existed, would create a situation where the vast majority of Canon users would find the current 5D3 completely not compelling as an upgrade. Indeed, many whose sole interest is image quality already find the 5D3 not particularly compelling.

Canon is charging "wow" prices for a machine that is only a "nice upgrade." As I've said before, far fewer people would be cranky had Canon chosen to price this machine at $2799. Honestly, that's all I think it's worth. I currently have both a D800 and a 5D3. I'm a long-long time Canon shooter.  I'm disappointed with the 5D3 and constantly being amazed by what the D800 can do.

But... If you're happy paying a lot of money for a nice upgrade, that's cool.

[awinphoto]

Because it's $500 more than a machine that IS revolutionary and kicks its ass in almost every way.

Um... i'll bite... are you insinuating that the 5d2 kicks the 5d3's ass in almost every way?  and if so, how?  If you are saying the 5d3 kicks the 5d2's ass, for a $500 premium, well duh..

Seems pretty clear he was talking about the D800.

Thanks for clearing that up... guess I need more coffee to wake up over here...  As for the D800/5d3, the only was the d800 kicks the 5d3's ass is DR and MP... the rest are a wash or slight advantage canon...  But that's another debate for another thread so anywho...

[awinphoto]

Um... i'll bite... are you insinuating that the 5d2 kicks the 5d3's ass in almost every way?  and if so, how?  If you are saying the 5d3 kicks the 5d2's ass, for a $500 premium, well duh..

This thread is about what Canon should learn from the D800... err... situation. The D800 is better in almost every way and costs $500 less.

Canon could have built a 5D3 two years ago by combining elements of the 7D and the 5D2 and getting about 80% there. That machine that it could have built two years ago, if it existed, would create a situation where the vast majority of Canon users would find the current 5D3 completely not compelling as an upgrade. Indeed, many whose sole interest is image quality already find the 5D3 not particularly compelling.

Canon is charging "wow" prices for a machine that is only a "nice upgrade." As I've said before, far fewer people would be cranky had Canon chosen to price this machine at $2799. Honestly, that's all I think it's worth. I currently have both a D800 and a 5D3. I'm a long-long time Canon shooter.  I'm disappointed with the 5D3 and constantly being amazed by what the D800 can do.

But... If you're happy paying a lot of money for a nice upgrade, that's cool.

Depends on your POV... for me, AF on the prior 5d's was atrocious... the 7d's wasn't perfect but kicked the 5d's AF every day of the week.  The high ISO, the AF, the weathersealing, everything as a whole package, for me, (also considering I make my living by my photography), the 5d3 is worth it and then some...  Price is higher than before but everything from consumables, gas, food, energy, cars, etc is rising over the last half decade, inflation is soaring, why would I not expect camera gear to rise as well?  The d800 is a fine camera, a very fine camera, i wont dismiss that or pretend to have my head in the sand, but Canon doesn't offer a D800, they offer the 5d3, which satisfies my needs, works with my lenses/flashes/etc, and is what i'm going to buy.  I dont need to have the D800 to feel like i'm a better photographer or produce better pictures, the 5d3 meets my needs as a photographer.  For me, personally and professionally, cased closed, next topic. 

[smirkypants]

Depends on your POV... for me, AF on the prior 5d's was atrocious... the 7d's wasn't perfect but kicked the 5d's AF every day of the week.  The high ISO, the AF, the weathersealing, everything as a whole package, for me, (also considering I make my living by my photography), the 5d3 is worth it and then some...  Price is higher than before but everything from consumables, gas, food, energy, cars, etc is rising over the last half decade, inflation is soaring, why would I not expect camera gear to rise as well?  .... For me, personally and professionally, cased closed, next topic.

I really hope this doesn't sound rude, but this is exactly what Canon wants, right? You are invested heavily in Canon to the extent that switching becomes a non-option. You are also willing to spend big dollars to overcome the previous model's defects.

As for the prices... Cameras are basically computers anymore, and the Consumer Price Index for computers and similar electronics is something that tends to run in reverse. I'm glad you feel pleased with your decision to get a 5D3. Being pleased is a good thing. Me? No.

[unfocused]

Getting back to the original post and some of the reactions.

The single most important thing any company has to pay attention to is sales figures. People act like that's a bad thing. But, it's not.

That's the way it should be because only sales figures are reliable. I know from decades of dealing with focus groups and polling that all the information that is gathered is useful, but it is only people's opinion. People lie. They say they want something, but they really don't. What matters is people's behavior. What are you really spending your money on. Not what you say you will spend your money on.

In a political campaign, the behavior is encapsulated in the ballot the voter casts. In the consumer world, it is encapsulated in buying decisions. All the pontificating, ranting, whining and speculating that occurs on forums is meaningless unless it has some connection to buying decisions. And, I strongly suspect that the vast majority of the multiple discussions here about the 5DIII have little or no connection to buying decisions.

Understand too, that almost no one on this forum is a "persuadable" consumer. Almost everyone here has already made up their minds about their brand preferences. The cost of getting a canonrumors forum reader to change behavior is too high and the population is too small.

If you think the 5DIII is a good value, buy it. If you don't, then don't buy it. Cast your ballot with your wallet. Because all the chatter on this forum is not going to turn the 5DIII into something it is not.