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Author Topic: D800 v. 5D3 threads: What should Canon's takeaway be?  (Read 17811 times)

the-ninth

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Re: D800 v. 5D3 threads: What should Canon's takeaway be?
« Reply #90 on: May 02, 2012, 06:25:15 AM »
A solution for increased dynamic range on the sensor is to learn how to light properly.
[...]
After all, photography is actually about making exposures WITH LIGHT.


I have to agree here. Owned a 30D before, now have a 5D3. I don't see how the increase in dynamic range between the two has improved my photography and neither believe any further increase would do so.

If your subject is well-lit, the DR of any recent DSLR should suffice. If light gets too harsh outdoors, then it is time to stop anyway, because you'll have other quality issues than DR. And even in those cases where light is good but uneven, e. g. indoors with sun-beams falling in, I never thought a few burned spots hurt a photo that is good otherwise. Here is an example: http://www.the-ninth.com/index.php?mode=display&area=gallery&aid=27&page=2&pid=593.

Cheers, Robert

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Re: D800 v. 5D3 threads: What should Canon's takeaway be?
« Reply #90 on: May 02, 2012, 06:25:15 AM »

torger

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Re: D800 v. 5D3 threads: What should Canon's takeaway be?
« Reply #91 on: May 02, 2012, 07:28:40 AM »
The advantage of digital medium format has traditionally been higher dynamic range and higher resolution, the disadvantage - an astronomic cost, still many professionals pay what it costs to gain that little extra quality. Now the D800 provides medium-format-like DR (perhaps even better DR) and resolution at an attractive price. A 35mm camera that crosses over into medium format territory, I think it is truly fantastic. The D800 sets a new standard of what can be achieved with a 35mm digital system. Great for fine art, landscape and studio photographers. Wouldn't it be great if Canon had a similar offer?

In medium format circles the D800 is now discussed as a serious alternative/complement to expensive MF cameras. Canon 5D mark III isn't even discussed at all. It should be said that the MF community is quite small though, so for total market sales it is not too important. But if Nikon gets known as the 35mm digital that can do it all, and Canon is mainly for journalism, sports and wildlife, many more beginning photographers that don't know for sure what they will do will rather invest in Nikon.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 07:41:53 AM by torger »

PhilDrinkwater

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Re: D800 v. 5D3 threads: What should Canon's takeaway be?
« Reply #92 on: May 02, 2012, 08:16:04 AM »
A solution for increased dynamic range on the sensor is to learn how to light properly.
[...]
After all, photography is actually about making exposures WITH LIGHT.


I have to agree here. Owned a 30D before, now have a 5D3. I don't see how the increase in dynamic range between the two has improved my photography and neither believe any further increase would do so.

If your subject is well-lit, the DR of any recent DSLR should suffice. If light gets too harsh outdoors, then it is time to stop anyway, because you'll have other quality issues than DR. And even in those cases where light is good but uneven, e. g. indoors with sun-beams falling in, I never thought a few burned spots hurt a photo that is good otherwise. Here is an example: http://www.the-ninth.com/index.php?mode=display&area=gallery&aid=27&page=2&pid=593.

Cheers, Robert


It isn't that this is something to be agreed with - it's just that your style of photography doesn't benefit from capturing a single frame with a high dynamic range.

"If your subject is well-lit, the DR of any recent DSLR should suffice. If light gets too harsh outdoors, then it is time to stop anyway, because you'll have other quality issues than DR"

These are big ifs. Just because this is when you put down your camera, doesn't mean it's when I put down my camera.

You don't stretch your camera - fair enough - but that doesn't make you correct. It just means you don't stretch your camera. That's your choice, just like others' choice is their choice.

Next we'll be saying that people who need continuous autofocus are "wrong" because if your subject is stationary it isn't needed and if your subject isn't stationary you shouldn't be taking the shot  ::)

the-ninth

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Re: D800 v. 5D3 threads: What should Canon's takeaway be?
« Reply #93 on: May 02, 2012, 09:05:06 AM »
It isn't that this is something to be agreed with - it's just that your style of photography doesn't benefit from capturing a single frame with a high dynamic range.
[...]
These are big ifs. Just because this is when you put down your camera, doesn't mean it's when I put down my camera.

You are right, this is about my preferences and I did not intent to generalize.

But I'd be interesting to know: what are the practical situations where you'd crave for more DR? I personally never encountered a situation where I thought "uh, if I just had more DR, this crappy picture would have been great".

Cheers, Robert

AvTvM

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Re: D800 v. 5D3 threads: What should Canon's takeaway be?
« Reply #94 on: May 02, 2012, 09:27:22 AM »
Canon's takeaway should be:
1. quickly reduce price of 5D3 below price of competitors' superior product
2. quickly get a grip on dark noise and resulting DR-performance of home-made CMOS sensors or start sourcing from Sony

awinphoto

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Re: D800 v. 5D3 threads: What should Canon's takeaway be?
« Reply #95 on: May 02, 2012, 10:29:23 AM »
It is what it is... If you set up a portrait, if you meter your lights and you get a 1:4 lighting ratio on your subject, if your camera has 10 stops of DR or 14, you should still get a 1:4 lighting ratio...  you set up a 1:8, you should still get a 1:8....  I read a lot of people who want to shoot in these extreme situations and have detail in the farther most regions of the DR spectrum, that's fine and dandy, but I think people forget that the expanded DR comes in the extreme points... It's not however going to make a back-lit portrait which would normally give you either a flat or a silhouette depending on how much light if any is illuminating the subject, it's not going to give you all of a sudden a "usable" picture unless you still light it... You will have a very dark subject with subtleties of detail in the extreme shadows.  Having more DR isn't going to change properties of light nor will it make your photos from being good to being exceptional.  It isn't the holy grail.  It's a tool that if you are willing to spend the time to fix every image, like old school film, you can get great results, but if you do not and expect great shots OOC, forget it. 
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neuroanatomist

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Re: D800 v. 5D3 threads: What should Canon's takeaway be?
« Reply #96 on: May 02, 2012, 10:32:36 AM »
Canon's takeaway should be:
1. quickly reduce price of 5D3 below price of competitors' superior product

It sounds like you think the D800 is superior to the 5DIII.  Do you believe that Canon thinks the D800 is superior to the 5DIII?   Is the D800's frame rate superior?  Is the D800's AF system better?  Does the D800 have higher available ISO settings (both base and expanded)?  I trust you are aware that there is more to a camera than the sensor, and more to the sensor than it's DR and dark noise...  Unless the D800 substantially outsells the 5DIII, Canon's takeaway will be...."Yay, we won, go Canon..."
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Re: D800 v. 5D3 threads: What should Canon's takeaway be?
« Reply #96 on: May 02, 2012, 10:32:36 AM »

PhilDrinkwater

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Re: D800 v. 5D3 threads: What should Canon's takeaway be?
« Reply #97 on: May 02, 2012, 10:44:53 AM »
It isn't that this is something to be agreed with - it's just that your style of photography doesn't benefit from capturing a single frame with a high dynamic range.
[...]
These are big ifs. Just because this is when you put down your camera, doesn't mean it's when I put down my camera.


You are right, this is about my preferences and I did not intent to generalize.

But I'd be interesting to know: what are the practical situations where you'd crave for more DR? I personally never encountered a situation where I thought "uh, if I just had more DR, this crappy picture would have been great".

Cheers, Robert


This shot:


Can turn into this shot:


But even with a fair amount of local NR there's still noise and I realistically have to turn colour NR up a bunch more:


For this shot what I was looking for was getting the castle in the background and the party in the foreground in softer light, but to lift this afterwards. I could have used a flash but I don't think it gives the same look...

I've got a bunch of similar examples - usually where I'm trying to get detail back into a cloudy sky or pull detail back from the shadows on a sunny day :)  Weddings just don't allow me to be perfect 'cos they happen too quick.

Anyway :) That's what I'd use it for. I know the landscape guys would like to be able to push the shadows a lot to create single frame HDR and I can see the attraction for that, especially where there's movement in the scene.

I think it's like high ISO - everyone years ago said "you don't need it" but when people had it they started to use it and now they wouldn't want to go back.

Razor2012

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Re: D800 v. 5D3 threads: What should Canon's takeaway be?
« Reply #98 on: May 02, 2012, 10:59:28 AM »
Canon's takeaway should be:
1. quickly reduce price of 5D3 below price of competitors' superior product

It sounds like you think the D800 is superior to the 5DIII.  Do you believe that Canon thinks the D800 is superior to the 5DIII?   Is the D800's frame rate superior?  Is the D800's AF system better?  Does the D800 have higher available ISO settings (both base and expanded)?  I trust you are aware that there is more to a camera than the sensor, and more to the sensor than it's DR and dark noise...  Unless the D800 substantially outsells the 5DIII, Canon's takeaway will be...."Yay, we won, go Canon..."

Agree with you here.  Not to take anything away from Nikon, but the whole arguement is about the 'superior' sensor.  Like you said what about the 5DIII's frame rate, AF & high ISO?  It's like saying my race car is superior to yours because I have 1200HP compared to your 900HP, not taking into consideration the rest of the mechanics or the driver.
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PhilDrinkwater

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Re: D800 v. 5D3 threads: What should Canon's takeaway be?
« Reply #99 on: May 02, 2012, 11:05:18 AM »
Canon's takeaway should be:
1. quickly reduce price of 5D3 below price of competitors' superior product

It sounds like you think the D800 is superior to the 5DIII.  Do you believe that Canon thinks the D800 is superior to the 5DIII?   Is the D800's frame rate superior?  Is the D800's AF system better?  Does the D800 have higher available ISO settings (both base and expanded)?  I trust you are aware that there is more to a camera than the sensor, and more to the sensor than it's DR and dark noise...  Unless the D800 substantially outsells the 5DIII, Canon's takeaway will be...."Yay, we won, go Canon..."

Agree with you here.  Not to take anything away from Nikon, but the whole arguement is about the 'superior' sensor.  Like you said what about the 5DIII's frame rate, AF & high ISO?  It's like saying my race car is superior to yours because I have 1200HP compared to your 900HP, not taking into consideration the rest of the mechanics or the driver.

Indeed. Some tracks require pure HP (drag strip?) whereas for some cornering ability is more important. Taking a car with pure HP round a track where cornering ability is important will mean you lose.

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Re: D800 v. 5D3 threads: What should Canon's takeaway be?
« Reply #100 on: May 02, 2012, 11:19:38 AM »
It isn't that this is something to be agreed with - it's just that your style of photography doesn't benefit from capturing a single frame with a high dynamic range.
[...]
These are big ifs. Just because this is when you put down your camera, doesn't mean it's when I put down my camera.


You are right, this is about my preferences and I did not intent to generalize.

But I'd be interesting to know: what are the practical situations where you'd crave for more DR? I personally never encountered a situation where I thought "uh, if I just had more DR, this crappy picture would have been great".

Cheers, Robert


This shot:


Can turn into this shot:


But even with a fair amount of local NR there's still noise and I realistically have to turn colour NR up a bunch more:


For this shot what I was looking for was getting the castle in the background and the party in the foreground in softer light, but to lift this afterwards. I could have used a flash but I don't think it gives the same look...

I've got a bunch of similar examples - usually where I'm trying to get detail back into a cloudy sky or pull detail back from the shadows on a sunny day :)  Weddings just don't allow me to be perfect 'cos they happen too quick.

Anyway :) That's what I'd use it for. I know the landscape guys would like to be able to push the shadows a lot to create single frame HDR and I can see the attraction for that, especially where there's movement in the scene.

I think it's like high ISO - everyone years ago said "you don't need it" but when people had it they started to use it and now they wouldn't want to go back.


I agree more DR would always be nice, as would better high ISO performance, etc. BUT there will always be limitations, even with improvements. In any system when the ceiling is hit, creativity will take you beyond.
7D | 5DII | EOS-3 | Nikon F3 | Mamiya 645 Pro-TL

PhilDrinkwater

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Re: D800 v. 5D3 threads: What should Canon's takeaway be?
« Reply #101 on: May 02, 2012, 12:22:28 PM »
I agree more DR would always be nice, as would better high ISO performance, etc. BUT there will always be limitations, even with improvements. In any system when the ceiling is hit, creativity will take you beyond.

Indeed. In the end I take masses of photos. More DR would be useful in about 1% of them. I've even learned to produce very sharp photos in low light with the 5d2 - and if I can do that I can do anything ;)

I'm still getting a 5d3 btw. And I think it's an amazing camera! (viewfinder I'm less pleased with... in fact DR is the lesser of my issues with it)

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: D800 v. 5D3 threads: What should Canon's takeaway be?
« Reply #102 on: May 02, 2012, 01:48:29 PM »
ugggggg...  Said it before and will say it again.  My response to all this is to stop sending my clients a proof gallery, and instead, send my shots to a lab where they will analyze it and send me a 500 page detailed report on the image, with histogram graphs and 3lots of science and tech info ---then i will pass this 500 page report to my clients and they can choose their prints from that...

Yes, thats really sarcastic, but from what I see and hear here it sounds like thats what your clients want, or you want.  Who cares about the actual image in question...  theres a lot of math in photography, and in music and in art --- but are most artists mathematicians?   Does an artist bust out a graphing calculator before they envision the image they wish to create? 

There is another segment of market research here to consider ---and this i think will drive what happens in the professional market more than forum posts ---where are the images going, what are people doing with them.  If more national geographic pictures have canon gear attached to them than nikon, then why would canon spend a boat load of r&d money on improving DR?  If more acclaimed artists are selling more printed works off of canon gear, then again why spend r&d $$$?  And then theres the wedding photography market ---which is really what the mk3 is geared too ---for that yeah nikon may have more wow results from the day time part of the ceremony, but even nikon pros who have used the mk3 praise its low light abilities and admit that canon has the edge there.  That's what will drive the pro market...

But with all that said, the rebel line and the nikon equivalent, that's whats really making both canon and nikon cash.  And in that race, hate to say it, MP's will win over anything else, because most people buying a rebel don't even know what DR is, or why it matters.  MP's though, we know thats important because it says it on the box!!! 

Sad to say it, but in terms of profit, its the low end that wins.  For the higher end pro/emerging pro market, its more about prestige - look at this wow shot by so and so taken on a such and such...

Lastly, I should remind all of you of these 2 videos -

Canon 5D MK III vs Nikon D800 with Nathan Elson Small | Large


Canon 5D Mark III vs. Nikon D800 Part 2 with Mike Drew Small | Large


Bottom line of both of these videos is ----if you are already on canon, there really isn't any need to switch, and, if your already on nikon, there is no need to switch ----overall consensus, most people would be more than happy with either camera. 

Anyway you hack it though, it brings me back to the very sarcastic beginning ---if your meeting with a client, arethey going to look at your images and feel you out as a person?  Or are they going to ask you about DR, or ask to see a DxO report on your camera, or an MFT chart on your lenses?  I don't think I'm too far off in saying that for most people in most fields of photography a client chooses them based on the images in the portfolio, the personality of the tog, and the cost for the session/disk/prints.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 01:55:24 PM by Chuck Alaimo »
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Re: D800 v. 5D3 threads: What should Canon's takeaway be?
« Reply #102 on: May 02, 2012, 01:48:29 PM »

PhilDrinkwater

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Re: D800 v. 5D3 threads: What should Canon's takeaway be?
« Reply #103 on: May 02, 2012, 06:20:27 PM »
Anyway you hack it though, it brings me back to the very sarcastic beginning ---if your meeting with a client, arethey going to look at your images and feel you out as a person?  Or are they going to ask you about DR, or ask to see a DxO report on your camera, or an MFT chart on your lenses?  I don't think I'm too far off in saying that for most people in most fields of photography a client chooses them based on the images in the portfolio, the personality of the tog, and the cost for the session/disk/prints.

Is this directed at me? If so, I don't sell on tech. Ever. That doesn't mean *I* don't care about it though. I push my gear in order to stay at the forefront of photography. There's nothing special about not being interested in all elements of photography - tech, content (expressions, background etc), lighting, composition etc. I'll never stop pushing. That's who I am.

My clients hire me because I have a fantastic portfolio (to their tastes) and a personality they want on their wedding day. They often stretch their budgets for me.

If it wasn't directed at me, the points still stand :)

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: D800 v. 5D3 threads: What should Canon's takeaway be?
« Reply #104 on: May 02, 2012, 06:28:18 PM »
A solution for increased dynamic range on the sensor is to learn how to light properly.
[...]
After all, photography is actually about making exposures WITH LIGHT.


I have to agree here. Owned a 30D before, now have a 5D3. I don't see how the increase in dynamic range between the two has improved my photography and neither believe any further increase would do so.

If your subject is well-lit, the DR of any recent DSLR should suffice. If light gets too harsh outdoors, then it is time to stop anyway, because you'll have other quality issues than DR. And even in those cases where light is good but uneven, e. g. indoors with sun-beams falling in, I never thought a few burned spots hurt a photo that is good otherwise. Here is an example: http://www.the-ninth.com/index.php?mode=display&area=gallery&aid=27&page=2&pid=593.

Cheers, Robert


Some of the more beautiful sights I've witnessed have had extremes in dynamic range. With more dynamic range you don't need to just pack up the camera and forget it.


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Re: D800 v. 5D3 threads: What should Canon's takeaway be?
« Reply #104 on: May 02, 2012, 06:28:18 PM »