October 22, 2014, 04:08:34 AM

Author Topic: Does "Banding" exist  (Read 1277 times)

Maui5150

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Does "Banding" exist
« on: October 17, 2014, 11:36:45 AM »
the new crappy iMac 5K display got me thinking.

This iMac is 8-bit color (16.7 million) where monitors like the one I use are 1.07 Billion (10-bit color per channel)

To achieve an environment capable of 1 Billion plus colors, you need more than a monitor, you need a capable video card as well as you need applications capable of running 30-bit vs the standard 24.  some earlier versions of Photoshop, for example were not 30-bit capable

A simple way of seeing if you are capable of 30-bit are images like this



My monitor at work shows banding... at home it is crisp and clean gradient that is as smooth as butter.

Got me thinking.  Always hear about the 5d MK III has banding, the Nikon D810 has banding... on and on. 

Is this banding on the sensor, or like, in the image above, is it the LCD screen on back of camera, or even that pricey monitor that only handles 8-bits per channel

Not saying that issues may not exist, but would be curious if when people are doing reviews, pixel peeping images and the like, more quantitatively environmental variables were specified. 

I have really seen no issues with banding with my 5D MK III, then again, most of the time I am in a 30-bit environment

Just food for thought

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Does "Banding" exist
« on: October 17, 2014, 11:36:45 AM »

Lawliet

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Re: Does "Banding" exist
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2014, 11:44:34 AM »

Is this banding on the sensor, or like, in the image above, is it the LCD screen on back of camera, or even that pricey monitor that only handles 8-bits per channel
Run a statistical analysis of the values in the .cr2 and you see the banding numerically. Absolutely no subjective or defice dependent component.
Also: if it where an artefact of the output channel image manipulation wouldn't work on it.
Quote
Just food for thought
No, not at all.

zim

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Re: Does "Banding" exist
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2014, 11:47:13 AM »
Nope, no banding here, just a big black rectangle  ;D

But then I am pool side on holiday typing on a hudl and its beer o'clock  ;D ;D

Environmental variables  ;)

krisbell

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Re: Does "Banding" exist
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2014, 01:22:06 PM »
Interesting thought - I am always wrestling with banding on my 5DIII images but then again, I can see clear banding in the box you display so now I am curious as to how much of the banding I am seeing is camera/editing vs display...I shudder to think of all that noise I have added to otherwise clean images to combat banding when it may just be my display all along!
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PropeNonComposMentis

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Re: Does "Banding" exist
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2014, 02:04:59 PM »

Just food for thought


Food for thought - Indeed !

It is my understanding that 'banding' and other 'artifacts', perceived within images, can be psychosomatic. 0.0
There have been some surprising discoveries in the last few years, regarding how the human eye / brain actually builds-up an image. The discoveries have come from the field of Robotics and making machines that "see".

Not all is as it seems... Apparently !

climber

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Re: Does "Banding" exist
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2014, 02:15:03 PM »
On my 15'' Retina display I see bending on the "picture" above. Anyone else too?

xvnm

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Re: Does "Banding" exist
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2014, 02:25:32 PM »
the new crappy iMac 5K display got me thinking.

Have you ever seen one in person to say it is crappy? What kind of deep, objective, technical analysis did you perform on them? I would love to hear your evidence-based conclusions. Until then, get your facts straight.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2014, 02:32:59 PM by xvnm »
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Re: Does "Banding" exist
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2014, 02:25:32 PM »

xvnm

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Re: Does "Banding" exist
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2014, 02:39:43 PM »
Here is what those who have actually seen the new iMac in person have to say: http://www.macrumors.com/2014/10/16/hands-on-impressions-retina-imac/
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PropeNonComposMentis

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Re: Does "Banding" exist
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2014, 03:38:27 PM »
hmmm !  ego/perception = 1/IQ 

Valvebounce

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Re: Does "Banding" exist
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2014, 08:15:23 AM »
Hi Zim.
Thanks for the laugh, happy holiday.

Cheers, Graham.

Nope, no banding here, just a big black rectangle  ;D

But then I am pool side on holiday typing on a hudl and its beer o'clock  ;D ;D

Environmental variables  ;)
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Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Does "Banding" exist
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2014, 10:56:18 PM »
On my 15'' Retina display I see bending on the "picture" above. Anyone else too?

The CR site creates all sorts of image issues that are not there in the original.  It reduces the original size, and converts it to .png.
 
It is far better to link to a good site like smugmug if you want to see what a image looks like.  Flickr also is said to butcher images.

3kramd5

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Re: Does "Banding" exist
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2014, 11:04:24 AM »
the new crappy iMac 5K display got me thinking.

Have you ever seen one in person to say it is crappy? What kind of deep, objective, technical analysis did you perform on them? I would love to hear your evidence-based conclusions. Until then, get your facts straight.

He's obviously basing it on the specifications (in particular it only being sRGB), the only factual thing most of us have access to currently.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 12:04:22 PM by 3kramd5 »
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Maui5150

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Re: Does "Banding" exist
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2014, 01:06:09 PM »
On my 15'' Retina display I see bending on the "picture" above. Anyone else too?

Of course you will.  Macs I believe are only capable of producting sRGB or less for colors.  The image posted is has 10-bit color.  You need a display and graphics card capable of 1.07 Billion colors

OSX only supports 24-bit color (8-bit per channel)

This is why the display is a POS. 

If you look at some of the Samsung, ASUS and even Dell which I dislike, they may be 4K displays, but they will display 1 Billion plus colors.

So what will be a more accurate picture?

A 5K display (more pixels) that only has 16.7 Million colors (less colors) or a 4K display that has 1 Billion plus colors. 

To my original point.  I am sure banding does occur, but how much of the "perceived" banding is because the monitors and screens being used are not capable of properly displaying the colors captured in the raw file?


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Re: Does "Banding" exist
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2014, 01:06:09 PM »

PropeNonComposMentis

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Re: Does "Banding" exist
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2014, 01:11:22 PM »
To my original point.  I am sure banding does occur, but how much of the "perceived" banding is because the monitors and screens being used are not capable of properly displaying the colors captured in the raw file?

This is one of those questions that will never go away.
I mean, like, what do you trust ? your own eyes ? or the numbers in a data file ? or someone else ?
If you want to go all science'ee, the human eye can not perceive even 16.7m colours. 70% of males are colour-blind at the red end. High-Vis' colours in the Southern Hemisphere, are dull and unremarkable in the Northern Hemisphere. Do we accept the Sun as White or as Yellow ? Is 18% grey actually valid ? Who said that a Raw File contains all the data ?
Have you ever seen one of those images of Black and White squares ? where when you stare at it you begin to see dark dots in the white squares.

IMO, you have already nailed the key point yourself, "perceived".

Logically. Take a shot, print it, pin it up beside your monitor, and compare. Even take a shot of the monitor and print together, see if there is a difference when the file is viewed on different monitors.

Juz saying...

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fragilesi

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Re: Does "Banding" exist
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2014, 01:17:07 PM »
On my 15'' Retina display I see bending on the "picture" above. Anyone else too?

Blimey I thought it was just the new iPhone 6s that were meant to have that problem!

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Re: Does "Banding" exist
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2014, 01:17:07 PM »