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Author Topic: After DPREVIEW of D800 would you still get the Canon 5d mark iii?  (Read 23740 times)

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Re: After DPREVIEW of D800 would you still get the Canon 5d mark iii?
« Reply #120 on: May 11, 2012, 12:34:35 PM »
There are all these claims that the D800 is better than the 5D3, most attribute this to DR and resolution. So far, the DR claims have mostly been a bunch of numbers or graphs. I have yet seen any photos showing what difference that XX ev has resulted in. Not even lab photos.

As to resolution - yes, it is clearly visible in the photos. However, this statement from dpreview illustrates just how difficult it is to get that kind of resolution advantage (even in a highly controlled lab environment).

"We should note, however, that we had to work quite hard to get this amount of resolution. We used flash to eliminate any risk of blurring due to vibration, we focus-bracketed in extremely fine increments, and we used an excellent lens (the Nikkor AF-S 50mm f/1.4 G) at an aperture optimal for central sharpness of F4.5."

Moreover, this resolution advantage - achieved through considerable efforts - carries a price. Larger files mean less space for photos on your memory card, lower frames per second, longer upload time, longer processing time, more hard drive space required, etc...

On the other hand, the 5D3 has a faster frame per second, less moire and aliasing in video, more advanced in camera movie functions (although some professional had to remove the AA filter to achieve an acceptable resolving power), an advanced AF system from the 1D series and a free bundled RAW conversion software.

Looking at the two cameras from this perspective makes one wonder which is really the better one...

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Re: After DPREVIEW of D800 would you still get the Canon 5d mark iii?
« Reply #120 on: May 11, 2012, 12:34:35 PM »

Hesham

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Re: After DPREVIEW of D800 would you still get the Canon 5d mark iii?
« Reply #121 on: May 11, 2012, 01:55:11 PM »
I purchased the 5d3 a month ago and love it but sometimes the images can be soft and the focus system tricky. I was curious how dpreview can still say that the noise is even better controlled than the 5d3. Basically they do not say in anyway the 5d3 is better except the focus system and fps but really thats not much. Any thoughts?


After returning my 5DM3, I almost changed camps due to all the fuzz about resolution & DR (which are true & amazing with the D800). But while waiting for 5DM3 (and D800) to show-up in-stock anywhere, I used the time to do more research and my conclusion is exactly like this one:
Canon 5D Mark III vs Nikon D800 Comparison Small | Large


neuroanatomist

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Re: After DPREVIEW of D800 would you still get the Canon 5d mark iii?
« Reply #122 on: May 11, 2012, 02:18:42 PM »
Yes and no, I do fully agree that the 5D3 is a much better camera, than the 5D2, but isn't it logic considering the 5D2 is 4 years old ? The camera mechanics has much improved, in the same proportions the 5D2 improved over the 5D1

I disagree.  The 5D to 5DII update was almost entirely about the sensor, in terms of the 'technical characteristics that matter' - both cameras have the same metering, same AF, 0.9 more fps (30% increase), and a major increase in MP.  The 5DIII significantly improves metering, massively improves AF, there's a 54% increase in frame rate, and basically no change in the sensor.

Nikon has better AF

It does? How so?
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JR

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Re: After DPREVIEW of D800 would you still get the Canon 5d mark iii?
« Reply #123 on: May 11, 2012, 02:39:11 PM »

Nikon has better AF

It does? How so?

Having shot with a 5dmkiii, the D800 and the D4 in the last few weeks, i would say the new 61 point af from Canon is the better and faster af system.  The nikon a system is also very amasing and works well, but the new canon one is just better ...

I both cases, they are light years ahaid of the 5d mkii !!!

 ;)
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 02:43:03 PM by JR »
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Re: After DPREVIEW of D800 would you still get the Canon 5d mark iii?
« Reply #124 on: May 11, 2012, 03:20:05 PM »
Yes, Because of those lovely canon primes.
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symmar22

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Re: After DPREVIEW of D800 would you still get the Canon 5d mark iii?
« Reply #125 on: May 11, 2012, 04:12:45 PM »
Well, I agree the AF of the 5D3 might be better than the Nikon, but don't forget that Canon was way behind in this domain till now, the 5D2 AF is simply a shame, it was time to correct it.

The same way Nikon was late with sensors, they improved dramatically here.

Don't misunderstand me here, the 5D3 would have had a sensor in the 28-32MP range, I would have bought it immediately, I'm glad Canon has finally developed a decent AF (though of little concern for me, since I focus manually most of the time), I am just disappointed they could not release such a sensor after 4 years, I don't care too much about high ISO so for me the 5D2 will do the job a bit longer.

What is more bothering me is the metering system, with or without flash that allows Nikon owners to use auto modes without even thinking about it (since the F801), Canon still has some work to do here. Once again, little concern for me since I use manual mode and studio flashes, but still a useful feature for quick outdoor shots.

The features I rave the most about the 5D is the 100% viewfinder and the integrated level, but still 3.5k is a bit too much for these features alone.

What I am just saying is that everyone is drooling when a smartphone has more pixels on it's screen, or that compact cameras are in the 18mpx range nowadays, but no one seems to find funny that a brand like Canon could not improve the resolution of its pro cameras in 4 years.

I am not complaining about the improvements on the 5D3, I am honestly criticizing the lack of novelty about the sensor, that barely evolved in 4 years, when Canon was the absolute leader in full frame sensors till now, it just seems they stopped on their way. One could have expected a camera not only with a better AF and light metering but AS WELL a better sensor.

Let them release the same camera with a 30+ mpx sensor, I'll be first to buy it, my personal opinion is the 5D3 offers little image quality improvement (aside from the high ISO) and it's a bit overpriced for what it has to offer.

I would gladly stay with Canon, just for the TS-E lenses that are irreplaceable for me; speaking of lenses and accessories, a little effort on the prices would be welcome as well, price increase has been a bit surrealistic these last years.

Once again I am not a fanboy of any brand, I just try to keep an honest critical point of view, even about the tools I use, since perfection is not part of this world.

I am just hoping that this healthy competition will lead Canon to release the big mpx sensor a lot of people are waiting for...
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 04:17:10 PM by symmar22 »

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Re: After DPREVIEW of D800 would you still get the Canon 5d mark iii?
« Reply #126 on: May 11, 2012, 04:35:48 PM »
I am just hoping that this healthy competition will lead Canon to release the big mpx sensor a lot of people are waiting for...

What are you shooting that requires so much resolution? If resolution an DR are that important to you, the choice is clear: get a D800. If resolution and DR are important enough to complain about Canon's sensors, but not important enough to you to buy a D800,  then it's not as important as all the whiners are making it out to be :)

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Re: After DPREVIEW of D800 would you still get the Canon 5d mark iii?
« Reply #126 on: May 11, 2012, 04:35:48 PM »

symmar22

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Re: After DPREVIEW of D800 would you still get the Canon 5d mark iii?
« Reply #127 on: May 11, 2012, 05:14:17 PM »
If only it was just a camera.... when you own about 10 lenses, making the switch is not that easy. It costs me an arm switching from Nikon to Canon years ago, you can understand I am a bit reluctant to try the adventure again...

Is it so unreasonable to wish Canon had put a few more pixels on its sensor over 4 years ?

Every brand goes the same direction, why should Canon be so wise they go the other way ?

What subject needs the resolution of a 50mpx Hasselblad ?

Why is everyone so satisfied with this sensor resolution when a few years ago they were all joking about the  resolution of  the D700 compared to the 5D2 ?

The fact that Canon marketing has decided 22mpx is enough doesn't mean everyone must agree.

The point to high mpx sensors is they get closer to medium format quality at a fraction of the cost, a lot of studio professionals are very happy with this kind of improvements; everyone is not shooting sports, weddings or hand held low light photography, I mean, there is room for still photography with more resolution. Nikon understood the idea, I am just sorry Canon doesn't.

That doesn't make the 5D3 a bad camera, just not exactly the one some people were expecting....
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 06:43:05 PM by symmar22 »

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Re: After DPREVIEW of D800 would you still get the Canon 5d mark iii?
« Reply #128 on: May 11, 2012, 05:41:09 PM »
Is it so unreasonable to wish Canon had put a few more pixels on its sensor over 4 years ?

My guess would be that Canon's market research indicated that most 5D3 buyers were content with the 5D2's resolution. The glass might have something to do with it to. I defer to the more tech savvy folks to comment on this, but a sensor can only resolve as much as the lens in front of it, and the current L-series lineup may be inadequate in this regard.

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Every brand goes the same direction, why should Canon be so wise they go the other way ?

Truthfully, the D800 is the first full-frame body to really push the megapixel limit. The megapixel war is most prevalent in the entry-level crop market, where it's more of a marketing tool than anything else.

Quote
What subject needs the resolution of a 50mpx Hasselblad ?

Lots of subjects can benefit from a 50 mp Hasselblad, but very few pro photographers make enough money with their images to justify purchasing medium format gear in order to take images of those subjects. Surely, if you make enough money with your images to own medium format gear, switching 35mm systems isn't a big deal. Plus, if you have a client that requires shooting at the resolution required from medium format, they're probably accustomed to footing the bill to rent that gear.
 
Quote
Why is everyone so satisfied with this sensor resolution when a few years ago they were all joking about the  resolution of  the D700 compared to the 5D2 ?

I wasn't. I liked the D700 better. At the time, I thought the perfect camera would be a D700 with a tad more resolution, and that's pretty much what Canon built in the 5D3 :)

Quote
The point to high mpx sensors is they get closer to medium format quality at a fraction of the cost, a lot of studio professionals are very happy with this kind of improvements; everyone is not shooting sports, weddings or hand held low light photography, I mean, there is room for still photography with more resolution. Nikon understood the idea, I am just sorry Canon doesn't.

IMHO, a D800 is akin to medium format like speedlites are to studio strobes. The lesser, cheaper gear can get the job done in a pinch given proper technique, with surprisingly good results at times, but to say a 35mm sensor is a legitimate replacement for medium format is a bit of a stretch.

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Re: After DPREVIEW of D800 would you still get the Canon 5d mark iii?
« Reply #129 on: May 11, 2012, 06:29:03 PM »
Thanks V8 for what I call a constructive answer an a positive debate. I admit I have no absolute knowledge, and I am always pleased when people criticize positively... the main thing being to keep an open mind ;)

1- I agree Canon's has carefully decided the 20mpx range was the sweet spot for most of his customers, and I can understand that. For the glass, are you sure this is an absolute limiting factor here ? Do you think the current lens range can not handle more pixels ?

2 - I don't fully agree about the megapixel race; we saw the Nikon D1 as a marvel with 2 mpx, the 5D1 one as a wonder with 12 mpx, the 5D2 with 21mpx and so on. I am not saying 36mpx is so wonderful, I just think there is a bit of room ahead and the trend should continue to add resolution in the future, though at a slower pace. My guess is that few people would have complained if the mk3 would have been around 28mpx.

3/5 - I fully agree with the problematic of the medium format and the relationship with the clients budget, what I am just saying is the high res sensors can provide a quality closer (not equal) to the medium format for a much lower cost. The trend being to cut on every budget, it might be a decent alternative for some medium end work. The same way film makers were so happy with the video capacity of the 5D2 to provide high end movies for a low budget, although it doesn't play in the same category as an Arriflex...
My guess is this is what Nikon is trying to do with the D800E.

4 - I agree as well the D700 was almost the perfect camera, but lacked a bit of resolution, in this sense, the 5D3 is probably a much better all around camera. Nevertheless I am curious to see if they'll release something else....
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 06:45:06 PM by symmar22 »

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Re: After DPREVIEW of D800 would you still get the Canon 5d mark iii?
« Reply #130 on: May 11, 2012, 07:22:43 PM »
Thanks V8 for what I call a constructive answer an a positive debate. I admit I have no absolute knowledge, and I am always pleased when people criticize positively... the main thing being to keep an open mind ;)


Likewise. Keeping things positive isn't always the case online!

Quote
1- I agree Canon's has carefully decided the 20mpx range was the sweet spot for most of his customers, and I can understand that. For the glass, are you sure this is an absolute limiting factor here ? Do you think the current lens range can not handle more pixels ?


No I'm not, which is why I welcome someone that's more knowledge than myself to chime in :) Someone posed a theory that the reason why the 24-70II costs a small fortune, and why Canon has filed so many patents for lenses lately, is that they're preparing their lens lineup for a mega resolution sensor. Obviously it's just a theory, but I've heard far crazier theories online before :)

Quote
2 - I don't fully agree about the megapixel race; we saw the Nikon D1 as a marvel with 2 mpx, the 5D1 one as a wonder with 12 mpx, the 5D2 with 21mpx and so on. I am not saying 36mpx is so wonderful, I just think there is a bit of room ahead and the trend should continue to add resolution in the future, though at a slower pace. My guess is that few people would have complained if the mk3 would have been around 28mpx.


I agree that 28 megapixels looks better on paper, but what does that translate to in terms of usable resolution? In other words, how much larger can you print 28 mp image compared to a 22 mp image? Someone smarter than I will have to answer that, but this is a pretty interesting read:

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/03/d-resolution-tests

Quote
The trend being to cut on every budget, it might be a decent alternative for some medium end work.
My guess is this is what Nikon is trying to do with the D800E.


That's a good point. A buddy of mine used to work for an agency in Chicago that did product shots for many mid-tier and several high-end clients. According to him, many mid-tier clients are now taking product shots with their iPhones to save money :o With dwindling budgets, I can see how the D800 would be appealing for projects that might have once been deemed medium format territory.

Quote
4 - I agree as well the D700 was almost the perfect camera, but lacked a bit of resolution, in this sense, the 5D3 is probably a much better all around camera. Nevertheless I am curious to see if they'll release something else....


Me too. If the D800 poses a threat to Canon's market share, they'll have to respond.

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Re: After DPREVIEW of D800 would you still get the Canon 5d mark iii?
« Reply #131 on: May 12, 2012, 06:03:12 AM »
2 - I don't fully agree about the megapixel race; we saw the Nikon D1 as a marvel with 2 mpx, the 5D1 one as a wonder with 12 mpx, the 5D2 with 21mpx and so on. I am not saying 36mpx is so wonderful, I just think there is a bit of room ahead and the trend should continue to add resolution in the future, though at a slower pace. My guess is that few people would have complained if the mk3 would have been around 28mpx.

I'd guess the problem is that 28 MP would have come at the cost of FPS and lower video quality.

To me it seems like Canon are focused on making sure each FF body addresses a market very specifically, the 1Ds mk3 has given way to the 1DX thats more focused on the high end sports/jurno market and the 5D mk3 looks to be targetted at event photography. I'm guessing that alot of event photographers are also moving into videography aswell these days, videography in enviroments where there not in control of the lighting so ISO performance is a big factor.

Quote
3/5 - I fully agree with the problematic of the medium format and the relationship with the clients budget, what I am just saying is the high res sensors can provide a quality closer (not equal) to the medium format for a much lower cost. The trend being to cut on every budget, it might be a decent alternative for some medium end work. The same way film makers were so happy with the video capacity of the 5D2 to provide high end movies for a low budget, although it doesn't play in the same category as an Arriflex...
My guess is this is what Nikon is trying to do with the D800E.

Besides the typical "the 5D mk3 can do anything" comments your obviously going to get at launch there have been hints that Canon isnt blind to this, talk of seeing how the D800 performs and then responding.

I think its easy to see why a large conservative company would behave that way as like you say pushing MP into the 40ish region is a very different market and one thats not aswell understood. Perhaps a less a case of whether Canon looks to up MP and more a case as to what form they'll take, 30MP? 50MP? what kind of spec for the body in terms of AF, FPS etc.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 07:09:00 AM by moreorless »

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Re: After DPREVIEW of D800 would you still get the Canon 5d mark iii?
« Reply #132 on: May 12, 2012, 07:55:20 PM »
There are all these claims that the D800 is better than the 5D3, most attribute this to DR and resolution. So far, the DR claims have mostly been a bunch of numbers or graphs. I have yet seen any photos showing what difference that XX ev has resulted in. Not even lab photos.

As to resolution - yes, it is clearly visible in the photos. However, this statement from dpreview illustrates just how difficult it is to get that kind of resolution advantage (even in a highly controlled lab environment).

"We should note, however, that we had to work quite hard to get this amount of resolution. We used flash to eliminate any risk of blurring due to vibration, we focus-bracketed in extremely fine increments, and we used an excellent lens (the Nikkor AF-S 50mm f/1.4 G) at an aperture optimal for central sharpness of F4.5."

Moreover, this resolution advantage - achieved through considerable efforts - carries a price. Larger files mean less space for photos on your memory card, lower frames per second, longer upload time, longer processing time, more hard drive space required, etc...

On the other hand, the 5D3 has a faster frame per second, less moire and aliasing in video, more advanced in camera movie functions (although some professional had to remove the AA filter to achieve an acceptable resolving power), an advanced AF system from the 1D series and a free bundled RAW conversion software.

Looking at the two cameras from this perspective makes one wonder which is really the better one...



Week 2 of my switch to the dark side and the D800 still impresses with DR beyond any canon DSLR I've ever shot with period. As you say, all these "claims" are a bunch of charts and numbers. So I encourage you to rent one and see for yourself. It is really impressive specially if you shoot landscapes. I wouldn't shoot a landscape with any other camera at this point short of a Hassy. There is just something about those RAWs that keeps pulling detail out of nowhere. I've never seen anything like this on a canon. It has transformed the way I post process. Most of the difference is at ISO100-400 where the D800 is just plain unmatched by anything south of medium format.

I have to fully disagree with the idea that it is hard to get resolution out of it. That's just ridiculous. The amount of detail I've pulled out is just insane and it took nothing more than what I had with the 5DMKII. That is: just a simple tripod, stable technique, and proper focus. Anybody spraying and praying has no business with the masterpiece that is the D800. And you know what pisses me off? oh why didn't I order the E model! The stuff that is coming out of it looks even better than the D800 and here I was thinking that was not possible.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/nikon_d800_d800e_first_comparison.shtml

If you want to learn how to properly shoot the D800, forget dpreview shooting with a 500 dollar Nikon lens. Go here:

http://diglloyd.com/

the 24 f/1.4 Nikkor on the D800 is like heaven on earth for detail. But you know what don't take a former canon player word for it. Or for heaven's sake forget DP review. Anybody even remotely interested in landscape/studio needs to handle a D800 at least once. Then and only then talk.

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Re: After DPREVIEW of D800 would you still get the Canon 5d mark iii?
« Reply #132 on: May 12, 2012, 07:55:20 PM »

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Re: After DPREVIEW of D800 would you still get the Canon 5d mark iii?
« Reply #133 on: May 13, 2012, 02:37:07 AM »
There's no stock of D800s in any of the camera shops I've been to.  I don't know if they've even landed in my country yet.  Therefore, despite my best efforts to try out the Nikon, I'll be buying a 5D3.  Tomorrow, probably.  Being able to physically obtain a camera is usually more important than minor specification differences.

And after my 10 megapixel 40D, 22 megapixels will be a considerable upgrade, I suspect.
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Re: After DPREVIEW of D800 would you still get the Canon 5d mark iii?
« Reply #134 on: May 18, 2012, 07:51:36 AM »
After your 40D the amount of detail the FF sensor captures will blow you away.
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Re: After DPREVIEW of D800 would you still get the Canon 5d mark iii?
« Reply #134 on: May 18, 2012, 07:51:36 AM »