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Author Topic: New Crop/APS-C Prosumer Camera Body in the Fall? [CR1]  (Read 12539 times)

D_Rochat

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Re: New Crop/APS-C Prosumer Camera Body in the Fall? [CR1]
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2012, 05:39:40 PM »
The 7D NEEDS an update, I think it would be quite silly of Canon to either not replace it or take it slightly down market.  There needs to be an APS-C flagship if Canon is serious about staying with the format.

To be a proper APS-C flagship, the 7DII needs:

  • 100% viewfinder
  • Dual Digic V
  • The same 18MP sensor with improved DR
  • Clean ISO 12,800
  • 10 fps with a decently sized buffer
  • 61 pt AF from the 5DIII
  • The usual video improvements
  • I'd even consider a builtin portrait grip like the 1 series bodies
It would be a dream camera for those who can't afford the 1 series or need the extra reach of APS-C.  Charge $2-$2.5K and you have a winner. :)

Those are pretty attractive specs, but your$2-$2.5k idea is nothing more than a pipe dream. Do you really think they'd sell a body for $2k with those specs, especially after how they priced the 5D mark III?

*edit* You forgot f/8 to further canibalize 1D X sales  :P
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 05:42:40 PM by D_Rochat »

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Re: New Crop/APS-C Prosumer Camera Body in the Fall? [CR1]
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2012, 05:39:40 PM »

photophreek

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Re: New Crop/APS-C Prosumer Camera Body in the Fall? [CR1]
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2012, 05:47:41 PM »
Quote
I thought the 7D replacement was the 5D mk3?

I've heard this notion before and I don't understnad where this is coming from.  The 5D III is a FF and the 7d is not.  Both cameras are directed at two different buyers and at two completly different price points.  Canon sells 2.5 Rebels for every one 5D III and many APS-C buyers can't justify the +$3500 price tag for the 5D III.  The 5D III is not IMHO a 7d replacement.

Stone

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Re: New Crop/APS-C Prosumer Camera Body in the Fall? [CR1]
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2012, 05:48:39 PM »
The 7D NEEDS an update, I think it would be quite silly of Canon to either not replace it or take it slightly down market.  There needs to be an APS-C flagship if Canon is serious about staying with the format.

To be a proper APS-C flagship, the 7DII needs:

  • 100% viewfinder
  • Dual Digic V
  • The same 18MP sensor with improved DR
  • Clean ISO 12,800
  • 10 fps with a decently sized buffer
  • 61 pt AF from the 5DIII
  • The usual video improvements
  • I'd even consider a builtin portrait grip like the 1 series bodies
It would be a dream camera for those who can't afford the 1 series or need the extra reach of APS-C.  Charge $2-$2.5K and you have a winner. :)

Those are pretty attractive specs, but your$2-$2.5k idea is nothing more than a pipe dream. Do you really think they'd sell a body for $2k with those specs, especially after how they priced the 5D mark III?

*edit* You forgot f/8 to further canibalize 1D X sales  :P

An APS-C 7D isn't any kind of threat to the 1DX which has the absolute best of everything.  People that need a 1 series camera, need a 1 series camera and an attractively spec'ed crop body isn't going to change that.  On the other hand, the 1DX will never be on the radar for alot of shooters, Canon shouldn't say:  "buy the most expensive thing we've got or do without."  because Nikon will be more than happy to fill that void.  Right or wrong, I just don't subscribe to the cannibalization of sales theory.

Even with the specs l listed for the 7DII, the 1DX would still be:
  • FF
  • better weather sealed
  • shoot faster
  • have the best af
  • have a much longer shutter life
  • better high ISO
  • and just flat out better IQ.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 05:51:20 PM by Stone »
5D III gripped | 7D gripped | 35L | 24-70 2.8L II USM | 70-200 2.8L IS II USM | 85 1.8 |

Brymills

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Re: New Crop/APS-C Prosumer Camera Body in the Fall? [CR1]
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2012, 05:51:22 PM »
The 7D NEEDS an update, I think it would be quite silly of Canon to either not replace it or take it slightly down market.  There needs to be an APS-C flagship if Canon is serious about staying with the format.

To be a proper APS-C flagship, the 7DII needs:

  • 100% viewfinder
  • Dual Digic V
  • The same 18MP sensor with improved DR
  • Clean ISO 12,800
  • 10 fps with a decently sized buffer
  • 61 pt AF from the 5DIII
  • The usual video improvements
  • I'd even consider a builtin portrait grip like the 1 series bodies
It would be a dream camera for those who can't afford the 1 series or need the extra reach of APS-C.  Charge $2-$2.5K and you have a winner. :)

I think you've just described 99% of the 1D X ???

photophreek

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Re: New Crop/APS-C Prosumer Camera Body in the Fall? [CR1]
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2012, 05:54:20 PM »
Stone - all your wishlist 7d features are nice except I'd be really happy with just better ISO performance and Digic V.  BTW, the 7d already has a 100% VF.

Stone

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Re: New Crop/APS-C Prosumer Camera Body in the Fall? [CR1]
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2012, 05:59:13 PM »
Stone - all your wishlist 7d features are nice except I'd be really happy with just better ISO performance and Digic V.  BTW, the 7d already has a 100% VF.

good catch.

You'd think I should know that since I've owned a 7D since last year, now that I think about it, it's only 100% coverage when attached to a 50mm lens and varies between 98%-99% at other focal lengths but I could be wrong....
5D III gripped | 7D gripped | 35L | 24-70 2.8L II USM | 70-200 2.8L IS II USM | 85 1.8 |

Dan A

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Re: New Crop/APS-C Prosumer Camera Body in the Fall? [CR1]
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2012, 06:14:18 PM »
I have an EOS 450D and for one am waiting for the next update to the 7D before I spend my cash, hopefully it will be this year.

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Re: New Crop/APS-C Prosumer Camera Body in the Fall? [CR1]
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2012, 06:14:18 PM »

traveller

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Re: New Crop/APS-C Prosumer Camera Body in the Fall? [CR1]
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2012, 06:29:31 PM »
The 7D NEEDS an update, I think it would be quite silly of Canon to either not replace it or take it slightly down market.  There needs to be an APS-C flagship if Canon is serious about staying with the format.

To be a proper APS-C flagship, the 7DII needs:

  • 100% viewfinder
  • Dual Digic V
  • The same 18MP sensor with improved DR
  • Clean ISO 12,800
  • 10 fps with a decently sized buffer
  • 61 pt AF from the 5DIII
  • The usual video improvements
  • I'd even consider a builtin portrait grip like the 1 series bodies
It would be a dream camera for those who can't afford the 1 series or need the extra reach of APS-C.  Charge $2-$2.5K and you have a winner. :)

Those are pretty attractive specs, but your$2-$2.5k idea is nothing more than a pipe dream. Do you really think they'd sell a body for $2k with those specs, especially after how they priced the 5D mark III?

*edit* You forgot f/8 to further canibalize 1D X sales  :P

I don't think that any specifications on the 7D MkII would endanger either the 1D X or 5D MkIII; if you're range limited you will want APS-C, for maximum subject isolation and ISO sensitivity you will want full frame.  [N.B. I'm not so sure this would have been the case if Canon had produced an APS-H 1D Mk5 (and FF 1Ds Mk5) instead of the 1D X]

Actually, I think that Stone's specifications at roughly that price point are exactly what Canon would do if they were to produce a successor to the 7D. 
By moving the 7D MkII up market, they'd free space to move the rest of the APS-C range up as well, which might help with the competition from 'mirrorless' and Sony's aggressively specified (and priced) SLTs. 

The other possibility is that Canon and Nikon are planning to amalgamate their two higher APS-C lines into one (like the old Canon XXD bodies -and perhaps hinted at by the lack of a D400 so far).  This would enable them to fill the $2000-$2500 price point with an 'entry level' full frame body instead. 

Danielle

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Re: New Crop/APS-C Prosumer Camera Body in the Fall? [CR1]
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2012, 06:57:55 PM »
If a 7d mkii appears still with weather sealing, with better iso capability and 10 frames per sec, I'm in.

However if the weather sealing gets retracted, I wouldn't buy one... I'd kill it!

wickidwombat

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Re: New Crop/APS-C Prosumer Camera Body in the Fall? [CR1]
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2012, 07:17:44 PM »
I can see this being a 7Dx

18MP APS-C
ISO clsoer to the performance of the 5Dmk3 but not quite as good
8 fps
dual card slots
body/ sealing / button latyout similar to 5Dmk3
61pt AF system same as 5Dmk3 with same metering
no flippy screen

it'll be a weapon and cost $2500+

I think the new rebel will get the old 19pt AF from the 7D
I think canon have learned their lesson about putting in crappy AF systems into otherwise good cameras

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Re: New Crop/APS-C Prosumer Camera Body in the Fall? [CR1]
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2012, 07:23:44 PM »
The 7D NEEDS an update, I think it would be quite silly of Canon to either not replace it or take it slightly down market.  There needs to be an APS-C flagship if Canon is serious about staying with the format.

To be a proper APS-C flagship, the 7DII needs:

  • 100% viewfinder
  • Dual Digic V
  • The same 18MP sensor with improved DR
  • Clean ISO 12,800
  • 10 fps with a decently sized buffer
  • 61 pt AF from the 5DIII
  • The usual video improvements
  • I'd even consider a builtin portrait grip like the 1 series bodies
It would be a dream camera for those who can't afford the 1 series or need the extra reach of APS-C.  Charge $2-$2.5K and you have a winner. :)

Those are pretty attractive specs, but your$2-$2.5k idea is nothing more than a pipe dream. Do you really think they'd sell a body for $2k with those specs, especially after how they priced the 5D mark III?...

Stone's price point is not unrealistic. Instead of comparing these specs to what is in the 5DIII and the 1DX, which are completely different formats, a more apt comparison is between these specs and what is already in the 7D.

Competitive pressures are greater on the 7D because it has to appeal to a broader, more competitive and more price sensitive market than either the 5D or the 1Dx. Plus R&D costs on APS-C sensors are spread out over a much more massive customer base than the costs of full frame sensor development. These and other factors work to hold the price down.

Actual details may vary, but Stone's specs are simple and fairly modest evolutionary steps in a model that sold for $1,700 at introduction. Clean ISO to 12,800 may be a bit optimistic, but I guess it depends on whose definition of "clean" you use. I expect to see 1D IV sensor performance in the next 7D and think most people would be happy with an APS-C sensor that performs as well as the previous generation of APS-H. Similarly, autofocus improvements don't have to match the 1Dx, but since the 7D already has strong autofocus, a few improvements to make it more intuitive with modest performance improvements shouldn't be out of the question.

I know a lot of 5D owners are still suffering from sticker shock, but the feature gap between the 5DII and 5DIII is quite massive. The gap between the 7D and 7DII need not be as great, because the 7D was great to begin with and there isn't that much that needs improving.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 11:00:35 PM by unfocused »
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drummstikk

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Re: New Crop/APS-C Prosumer Camera Body in the Fall? [CR1]
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2012, 07:28:59 PM »
really? Your timing is so bad you need more than 2 full seconds of a moment?? Maybe you should just stick to video recording and picking frames out of it. 720 @60fps should give you 1 you like, no?

Congratulations. I thought nothing could make me miss the "Smite" button, but you actually did it.

To *constructively* address Dalepa's problem: As suggested before, the fastest possible memory card may help, but my suggestion is more old fashioned - practice. For every "game day" of bird photography, or sports, or whatever you do, try to have at least a couple of practice days. Do your pro or AAA baseball game on Sunday, but also do some little league on  Wednesday and Saturday. Go to the national park for birds or wildlife on the weekend, but also shoot sparrows and squirrels in your backyard a couple of days during the week.

What I'm getting at here is that your buffer jam up a lot less if you shoot single frames and short bursts instead of standing on it. 50% of my work is sports and I use a 7D a lot for that, but filling the buffer is extremely rare for me. Happens to me maybe three or four times a year, and it's usually the post-championship celebration that does it and not the game action.

Most photographers let 8-12 fps motor drives and AF do a lot of work for them. Technology is wonderful, and there's really not much wrong with that. But practicing the skills old farts like me had to learn back in the 80's when there was no AF at all and a "fast" motor drive was 3 fps will kick things up a notch for anybody. Developing your sense of timing and your sense of when movement is *about* to occur will help keep your buffer open and also leave you with a much less daunting editing job after the fact.

Manual focusing skills are especially underrated today. I see a lot of "good enough" autofocused images in the stuff I see from student photographers at the university where I am a contract/event photographer. AF simply doesn't work in certain situations. If I AF'ed all my volleyball, I'd get hundreds of images with the net in perfect focus and the players all slightly fuzzed. Don't get me wrong, I use AF a lot. But sometimes you have to take over yourself to be sure you get the pass receiver's face in focus instead of the strong safety's back.
"Focused. Or focused not. There is no 'almost.'"

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RC

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Re: New Crop/APS-C Prosumer Camera Body in the Fall? [CR1]
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2012, 07:43:04 PM »
If a 7d mkii appears still with weather sealing, with better iso capability and 10 frames per sec, I'm in.

However if the weather sealing gets retracted, I wouldn't buy one... I'd kill it!

Dido and drop the pop up flash to trim the cost a bit. 

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Re: New Crop/APS-C Prosumer Camera Body in the Fall? [CR1]
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2012, 07:43:04 PM »

D_Rochat

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Re: New Crop/APS-C Prosumer Camera Body in the Fall? [CR1]
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2012, 08:02:37 PM »
An APS-C 7D isn't any kind of threat to the 1DX which has the absolute best of everything.  People that need a 1 series camera, need a 1 series camera and an attractively spec'ed crop body isn't going to change that.

I disagree. First, you described a 1 series body with the exception of the APS-C and a 7D badge. Some sports photogs may be a little more inclined to lean towards your dream camera because of the extra reach. Some of the better off amateurs who would otherwise buy a 1D X, might go to this fictional 7D because they wouldn't have to spend as much on long lenses. Super tele primes are a little pricey. Others aren't upgrading their 1DIV's because of f/8 and the crop.

All you guys who are saying that Canon could release a body with these specs forget what just happened with the 5D. This forum almost ripped itself apart when we found out what the new 5D offered and how much they wanted for it. Nothing wrong with dreaming, just don't get your hopes up.

And thanks to stilscream for encouraging people to dig up the karma system issue again.....


Terry Rogers

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Re: New Crop/APS-C Prosumer Camera Body in the Fall? [CR1]
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2012, 08:54:41 PM »
Maybe they left out f8 autofocus from the 1dx because they are going to add it to the 7d2. Many birders shoot 7d for the AF and crop factor. They are going for all the reach they can. Add 9 f8 AF points to a 7d2 with a 20mp crop sensor and you could have the ultimate long range wildlife camera. 500mm f4 + 2x teleconverter + 1.6 crop = 1600mm + lots of pixels to crop from and you get a rediculous long range wildlife camera.

They could bump the 7d line into a pro level crop camera for those who want the reach, and bump the XXD line closer to where the 7d1 is now.
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Re: New Crop/APS-C Prosumer Camera Body in the Fall? [CR1]
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2012, 08:54:41 PM »