New Crop/APS-C Prosumer Camera Body in the Fall? [CR1]

[KeithR]

simple: if Canon is too cheap and will not deliver a good body for a good price, there is always the alternative: Nikon - they are listening to the consumer's needs and are releasing really good bodies at lower prices than Canon...

And yet, Canon continues to sell more cameras.

What a tool you are. We get it - you're in an infantile hissy-fit over something Canon did to you: but your opinion is just that - your opinion. And a whiny, ill-formed, petulant one, at that.

You're not "everyone". More to the point, you're not anyone, so if you think your opinion matters a damn, you're even denser than your Drama Queen tantrums would currently suggest.

So sod off to Nikon and see where that gets you.

[AprilForever]

All you guys who are saying that Canon could release a body with these specs forget what just happened with the 5D. This forum almost ripped itself apart when we found out what the new 5D offered and how much they wanted for it. Nothing wrong with dreaming, just don't get your hopes up.

Key difference #1: 5DIII is targeted at a very specific professional audience (wedding and event photographers). Most of the complaining on the forum is from people who don't fit that niche and thought they were going to get a mass market camera at a bargain price. 7D is marketed to a much broader and more diverse audience. Canon focuses on its markets and makes cameras that will sell to their target audience;

Key difference #2: Price competition is much more important at the 7D level. More competition, less brand loyalty, less investment in the system;

Key difference #3: 5DII was very dated in some areas (autofocus). Professionals who rely on a 5D could not afford to skip a generation and wait for the 5DIV. 7D is much less dated (still the best APS-C camera made three years into its life). Only minor upgrades are needed. It will be much easier for 7D owners to skip a generation if the next model isn't to their liking.

Key difference #4 (an offshoot of above): The DSLR market has matured and will not grow anywhere near the pace it has grown in the past decade. Manufacturers must shift from concentrating on adding new customers to enticing existing customers to upgrade. Given the high customer satisfaction with the current 7D they have a challenge ahead of themselves to come up with something that will cause current owners to upgrade.

Key difference #5 (also related to 3&4): Upgraders fall into two main categories. The potential 60D user who wants something a bit more robust than the Rebel line but is unlikely to ever buy an "L" lens. These are customers satisfied with a good quality camera that they can use for stills and video and maybe a couple of lenses. Category two are the folks who have decided to get into photography in a big way and have a reasonable amount of disposable income to do so (the classic "enthusiast" or "prosumer.") These are folks who shoot at a high skill level, are prepared to invest in equipment but have no interest or desire to spend $3,000 on a camera. Second category also includes those who practice photography as an offshoot of another hobby (birders, for example).

Key difference #6: The demise of APS-H gives Canon an opportunity to greatly expand the 7D pool at little cost and with small changes. (Comparable sensor quality, modest improvements in build and autofocus). I'm still thinking we could see a 7Dx offered as an option with an integrated grip and other professional features.

In short, Canon is under much more pressure to deliver a 7D II at reasonable cost and their path is much more clear given that the camera doesn't need to be anywhere near as great of an upgrade as the 5DIII was to the 5DII.

And, I promise this. If they don't deliver, I won't be threatening to leave Canon or complaining about how they don't know what they are doing, or how the 7DII is just crap compared to the Nikon. Instead, I'll just keep on using my 7D, maybe buy a second body, and wait for the next generation.

As far as price, I wouldn't mind dropping 2500 for a 7D MK II, as long as it were indeed better in a few areas.  If the 7D mk II gets murdered into something which is not a 7D, I will wait another 3 sad years until they get it right. Likewise, I am not about to run off to Nikon: 1. My 300 2.8. 2. Nikon doesn't have anything comparable to the 7D. The d300 is way behind.... And the d400 may not be anything like I want.

Years ago, I got a 7D because I wanted it over the d300. I am glad I did! But, if they mess the 7D mk II up, my rage will have no limits. However, I will not rage quit on canon just because I didn't get what I wanted. I will rather wwait until they get it right...

[Stone]

Regarding the current 7D sensor, after living with the camera for the last 8-9 months, there's definitely room for sensor improvements and this is a case where I don't think upping the MP count would be a good thing, regardless of what the competition does.  Anyone that uses this camera knows that while the overall IQ is excellent, it can get a little noisy even at lower ISO if you don't nail your exposure or don't shoot to the right.  The camera can be downright evil if you underexpose your shots.

The 7DII is a scenario where a 5DIIIesque sensor upgrade would be in order.  Give us a stop or 2 more high ISO, and tame the low ISO noise and this camera can easily go on at 18MP for 3 more years.

I've given up hope for an APS-H 7DII although I think it would be the greatest thing since sliced bread and would give Canon an advantage that NO ONE could match, unfortunately, I don't think they could sell it for less than 3K.  I've been shooting with a 1DIV for the last week and it's just too good of a sensor for Canon to sunset.


Ken

[dswatson83]

I do wish Canon would work a little more with the sensor before releasing this camera. The 5d3 is a freaking awesome camera but it is pretty obvious that there is not much detail that can be pulled from shadows. It is worse on my 7D. The 7D is my favorite all around camera and hardly needs improvement. A 2nd card slot, maybe a couple more cross type focus points with a larger spread (though the 7D still has great focusing), and sensor improvements. Seriously, the current oldish 7D STILL has a class leading 18mp sensor with 8fps shooting (FAST!), great focusing, great video, weather sealing, and awesome features. But Nikon is winning the sensor battle in the shadows.

[AprilForever]

I do wish Canon would work a little more with the sensor before releasing this camera. The 5d3 is a freaking awesome camera but it is pretty obvious that there is not much detail that can be pulled from shadows. It is worse on my 7D. The 7D is my favorite all around camera and hardly needs improvement. A 2nd card slot, maybe a couple more cross type focus points with a larger spread (though the 7D still has great focusing), and sensor improvements. Seriously, the current oldish 7D STILL has a class leading 18mp sensor with 8fps shooting (FAST!), great focusing, great video, weather sealing, and awesome features. But Nikon is winning the sensor battle in the shadows.

Sooo... expose to the right and cut noisy shadows to black! 

But, no matter what, it is a serious camera... and a two stop improvvement would be great! But not at the cost of aps-h...

[V8Beast]

IMHO, Canon would be insane to drop the 7D line. The only question is whether it will be marketed as a 70D, 7D Mark 2, 7Dx....you get the idea. I'm very curious how many 7Ds Canon sells compared to Rebels and xxDs. I'm sure it's not as much, but I sure see a $hit ton of 7Ds out in the wild. Given how many more 7D2/70D/7Dx bodies Canon stands to sell compared to 5D3s, I find it interesting that it hasn't generated nearly as much hype.

I'm still hoping for a APS-H 7D2, if not, used 1D4 here I come

[wickidwombat]

simple: if Canon is too cheap and will not deliver a good body for a good price, there is always the alternative: Nikon - they are listening to the consumer's needs and are releasing really good bodies at lower prices than Canon...

And yet, Canon continues to sell more cameras.

What a tool you are. We get it - you're in an infantile hissy-fit over something Canon did to you: but your opinion is just that - your opinion. And a whiny, ill-formed, petulant one, at that.

You're not "everyone". More to the point, you're not anyone, so if you think your opinion matters a damn, you're even denser than your Drama Queen tantrums would currently suggest.

So sod off to Nikon and see where that gets you.

I really LOL'ed at this response
you really shouldn't sugar coat your responses so much Keith

[wickidwombat]

I'm still hoping for a APS-H 7D2, if not, used 1D4 here I come

Ditto, small form factor APS-H would be sweet and the perfect complement to the 5Dmk3

problem is 1D4 prices dont seem to be coming down any

Although I can see an APS-H 7D upsetting alot of people though

[D_Rochat]

I imagine used 1D mark IV's will come down in price a little once the 1D X hits the streets. I'm sure there are a lot of people hanging on to the mkIV's and waiting. I'm personally waiting until summer to see if they drop in price and will consider both a 1DmkIV and 5DmkII if the prices are close to that of a 5DmkIII by then. An APS-H 7D would be pretty nice and Canon will not make everyone happy no matter what they do.

[Ranga]

The 7D NEEDS an update, I think it would be quite silly of Canon to either not replace it or take it slightly down market.  There needs to be an APS-C flagship if Canon is serious about staying with the format.

To be a proper APS-C flagship, the 7DII needs:

• 100% viewfinder
• Dual Digic V
• The same 18MP sensor with improved DR
• Clean ISO 12,800
• 10 fps with a decently sized buffer
• 61 pt AF from the 5DIII
• The usual video improvements
• I'd even consider a builtin portrait grip like the 1 series bodies

It would be a dream camera for those who can't afford the 1 series or need the extra reach of APS-C.  Charge $2-$2.5K and you have a winner.

Those are pretty attractive specs, but your$2-$2.5k idea is nothing more than a pipe dream. Do you really think they'd sell a body for $2k with those specs, especially after how they priced the 5D mark III?

*edit* You forgot f/8 to further canibalize 1D X sales 

simple: if Canon is too cheap and will not deliver a good body for a good price, there is always the alternative: Nikon - they are listening to the consumer's needs and are releasing really good bodies at lower prices than Canon...

Lots of people might do that. Photographers in interested in pictures not brand loyalty. I started with Nikon I might get the rumoured D600 when it's out and use a cropped Canon body to use with my Canon lenses.

[D_Rochat]

Lots of people might do that. Photographers in interested in pictures not brand loyalty. I started with Nikon I might get the rumoured D600 when it's out and use a cropped Canon body to use with my Canon lenses.

Sure some may leave for the D800 and upcoming D600, but some are jumping the Nikon ship because they like what Canon offers. It goes both ways. Neither company is going to make everyone happy and it's just the nature of the beast. No one here cares about brand loyalty and I'm sure everyone will agree that you should go with what works for you. It's the people who do nothing but complain on the forum about how Canon didn't cater to them and how Nikon suits their needs better. But do they switch? No. They just continue to complain. We all have reasons for staying with or leaving Canon. None of them are wrong.

[recon photography]

simple: if Canon is too cheap and will not deliver a good body for a good price, there is always the alternative: Nikon - they are listening to the consumer's needs and are releasing really good bodies at lower prices than Canon...

And yet, Canon continues to sell more cameras.

What a tool you are. We get it - you're in an infantile hissy-fit over something Canon did to you: but your opinion is just that - your opinion. And a whiny, ill-formed, petulant one, at that.

You're not "everyone". More to the point, you're not anyone, so if you think your opinion matters a damn, you're even denser than your Drama Queen tantrums would currently suggest.

So sod off to Nikon and see where that gets you.

lol u mad brah? im a canon fanboy but im almost ready to say this guy is right canons seems to be dropping the ball especially in the Crop market (550-600 and where is 650/70 meanwhile d3200......... it probably beats them both, and for cheaper price), too bad every lens canon makes is better than every lens nikon makes

[Ranga]

Lots of people might do that. Photographers in interested in pictures not brand loyalty. I started with Nikon I might get the rumoured D600 when it's out and use a cropped Canon body to use with my Canon lenses.

Sure some may leave for the D800 and upcoming D600, but some are jumping the Nikon ship because they like what Canon offers. It goes both ways. Neither company is going to make everyone happy and it's just the nature of the beast. No one here cares about brand loyalty and I'm sure everyone will agree that you should go with what works for you. It's the people who do nothing but complain on the forum about how Canon didn't cater to them and how Nikon suits their needs better. But do they switch? No. They just continue to complain. We all have reasons for staying with or leaving Canon. None of them are wrong.

I actually used to shoot with Nikon D60 and a D90 now with a Canon. Had too longzoom Fujis too. I don't mind which brand it is as long as it helps me do my job. As you say it's stupid to complain or threaten on a rumor site.

[ruuneos]

Of course, the Sony 16 MP APS-C sensor has since then taken over the crown.

Actually, there's nothing that sensor will do that can't be matched or bettered by the 7D's sensor, at any ISO. 

When I see people calling the 7D sensor "horrible", I just shrug - "it's a bad workman..." and all that.

+1, Totally agree with you, 7D's sensor is hard to beat even now. After 3 years later when 7D was launched, still it's unbeatable.

[Chuck Alaimo]

An APS-C 7D isn't any kind of threat to the 1DX which has the absolute best of everything.  People that need a 1 series camera, need a 1 series camera and an attractively spec'ed crop body isn't going to change that.

I disagree. First, you described a 1 series body with the exception of the APS-C and a 7D badge. Some sports photogs may be a little more inclined to lean towards your dream camera because of the extra reach. Some of the better off amateurs who would otherwise buy a 1D X, might go to this fictional 7D because they wouldn't have to spend as much on long lenses. Super tele primes are a little pricey. Others aren't upgrading their 1DIV's because of f/8 and the crop.

All you guys who are saying that Canon could release a body with these specs forget what just happened with the 5D. This forum almost ripped itself apart when we found out what the new 5D offered and how much they wanted for it. Nothing wrong with dreaming, just don't get your hopes up.

And thanks to stilscream for encouraging people to dig up the karma system issue again.....

Actually, in terms of specs what most are saying here so far is really reasonable.  Spec some of it down a tad, a little less fps (down to maybe 8, and frankly if its a choice I'd take cleaner ISO at the 3200-6400 range over increased fps or increased native ISO).  For my uses at least, I find the max fps of the current 7d to be alomost too much.  I rarely set it on the highest speed because for me at least, it does not effect keeper rate, it just gives me more to go through.  But then again, I'm not shooting sports. 

Key factors that will separate the the 1 D line from both the 5d and 7d line is dual digic 5.

The current 7D had a launch price of $1700, so with similar stats to whats mentioned, $2-2500 is a reasonable starting point, which would give them room to launch a 70d at the $1300-1500 price point. 

Direction they take it, who knows?  I'm guessing it will be a case of trade offs.  Kind of the like the 7D currently is, just good enough to get most things done, but lacking in just a few spots that make you want to upgrade.  And for many 7D users, the 5D series is the next step, unless your a wildlife only shooter who needs the range...