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Author Topic: Is video raising cost of bodies? Is it wasted for many shooters?  (Read 29938 times)

zim

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Re: How many cameras will they sell without it?
« Reply #75 on: May 13, 2012, 01:49:02 PM »
I think you just need to try to wrap your head around the concept....that the video onboard these cameras...is NOT increasing the cost beyond your means.<P>
If you took the video capability off the 5D's.....they'd not drop a penny in price.

Really?
Put two 5D3s (or any other camera with video for that matter) in a shop window. One has the video disabled no other changes, which one would sell? the shop would have to lower the price of the one without video to sell it.

I asked earlier is there definitive proof that video affects the quality of stills images? for me that’s the only issue. If not then there is no problem having video if it does then that’s the argument for splitting the line at the pro level.

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Re: How many cameras will they sell without it?
« Reply #75 on: May 13, 2012, 01:49:02 PM »

Marsu42

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Re: How many cameras will they sell without it?
« Reply #76 on: May 13, 2012, 03:31:16 PM »
If you took the video capability off the 5D's.....they'd not drop a penny in price.

I don't know if the price would drop w/o video, but the body is geared towards still shooting because they didn't put in a swivel screen. I guess the reason is because video has still a cheapish appeal to old school dlsr shooters, and these would buy the 5d in any case.

lady

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Re: Is video raising cost of bodies? Is it wasted for many shooters?
« Reply #77 on: May 13, 2012, 03:54:17 PM »
Video is not the reason this thing is more expensive. The 5D2 HAD video when it came out and it did not cost this much. Getting rid of video will not change the fact that Canon is getting greedy.

lady

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Re: Is video raising cost of bodies? Is it wasted for many shooters?
« Reply #78 on: May 13, 2012, 04:12:32 PM »
Video is not the reason this thing is more expensive. The 5D2 HAD video when it came out and it did not cost this much. Getting rid of video will not change the fact that Canon is getting greedy.

No, getting rid of video won't make the US Dollar  buy more Japanese Yen.

If that was the issue, then almost all new Canon products would be seeing a massive price hike like this, and they aren't.

HurtinMinorKey

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Re: Is video raising cost of bodies? Is it wasted for many shooters?
« Reply #79 on: May 13, 2012, 04:47:01 PM »
Video is not the reason this thing is more expensive. The 5D2 HAD video when it came out and it did not cost this much. Getting rid of video will not change the fact that Canon is getting greedy.

The reason the price has increased is because DEMAND has increased, thanks in large part to the success of the 5d2.

elflord

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Re: Is video raising cost of bodies? Is it wasted for many shooters?
« Reply #80 on: May 13, 2012, 05:39:58 PM »
Video is not the reason this thing is more expensive. The 5D2 HAD video when it came out and it did not cost this much. Getting rid of video will not change the fact that Canon is getting greedy.

They're always "greedy" in the sense that they want to maximize sales revenue. Price will inevitably drop if/when they lose enough sales for it to outweigh the extra revenue from the  higher prices. They probably figure that most of the target market for this are spending so much on glass, tripods, lighting etc that they won't sweat a few dollars on the body.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 05:42:45 PM by elflord »

lady

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Re: Is video raising cost of bodies? Is it wasted for many shooters?
« Reply #81 on: May 13, 2012, 05:54:12 PM »
Video is not the reason this thing is more expensive. The 5D2 HAD video when it came out and it did not cost this much. Getting rid of video will not change the fact that Canon is getting greedy.

They're always "greedy" in the sense that they want to maximize sales revenue. Price will inevitably drop if/when they lose enough sales for it to outweigh the extra revenue from the  higher prices. They probably figure that most of the target market for this are spending so much on glass, tripods, lighting etc that they won't sweat a few dollars on the body.

To me, greedy isn't just wanting sales. "Greedy" is purposely charging a significant amount more for the product than its actual worth with no consideration for the customer. I believe the 5D2 was fairly priced at launch and would gladly have paid that amount of money for a camera. Canon still makes their profit, while I believe I'm paying a fair price. Greed comes in when the profit exceeds what the consumer believes to be a fair price. Some people will still pay the price for it (and if they can, then props to them) because to them as long as they have the product it doesn't matter. Other people will be more choosy.

If it were $3,000 I don't think I'd be complaining at all, actually. Maybe even $3,100. But $3,500? Very optimistic on Canon's part and it's taking advantage of the fact that some people don't actually care about price vs value (usually this happens when someone has enough money that a $500 difference seems minuscule).

I can afford it, so I'm not one of those people who's upset because they can't. I just care a lot about the value of what I'm getting.

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Re: Is video raising cost of bodies? Is it wasted for many shooters?
« Reply #81 on: May 13, 2012, 05:54:12 PM »

illogict

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Re: Is video raising cost of bodies? Is it wasted for many shooters?
« Reply #82 on: May 13, 2012, 06:01:11 PM »
Video is not the reason this thing is more expensive. The 5D2 HAD video when it came out and it did not cost this much. Getting rid of video will not change the fact that Canon is getting greedy.

No, getting rid of video won't make the US Dollar  buy more Japanese Yen.

If that was the issue, then almost all new Canon products would be seeing a massive price hike like this, and they aren't.

Then I wonder what explains the high growth of lens prices (http://www.canonpricewatch.com/canon-lenses-better-stocks/) for some years now... Compare to the USD value against the Yen: the dollar lost ⅓ of its value against the yen in five years!
Should have Canon (a Japanese company, may I remind you, whose accounts are done in Yens) really followed it, a lens costing $1000 (= 120000¥) in August 2008 should be $1500 now!
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lady

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Re: Is video raising cost of bodies? Is it wasted for many shooters?
« Reply #83 on: May 13, 2012, 06:18:46 PM »
Video is not the reason this thing is more expensive. The 5D2 HAD video when it came out and it did not cost this much. Getting rid of video will not change the fact that Canon is getting greedy.

No, getting rid of video won't make the US Dollar  buy more Japanese Yen.

If that was the issue, then almost all new Canon products would be seeing a massive price hike like this, and they aren't.

Then I wonder what explains the high growth of lens prices (http://www.canonpricewatch.com/canon-lenses-better-stocks/) for some years now... Compare to the USD value against the Yen: the dollar lost ⅓ of its value against the yen in five years!
Should have Canon (a Japanese company, may I remind you, whose accounts are done in Yens) really followed it, a lens costing $1000 (= 120000¥) in August 2008 should be $1500 now!

For every product that's gone up in price, I can name one that's stayed the same. Their printers, their powershots, the starter DSLR line, etc.

elflord

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Re: Is video raising cost of bodies? Is it wasted for many shooters?
« Reply #84 on: May 13, 2012, 06:32:03 PM »
To me, greedy isn't just wanting sales. "Greedy" is purposely charging a significant amount more for the product than its actual worth with no consideration for the customer.

And how do you determine what a product is "worth" ? We have something called a "market place" that does a very good job of determining what something is "worth".  I put it to you this thing called a market place will sort it out, and neither the manufacturer nor the consumer has the power to dictate what the optimal market price for the item is.

Quote
Canon still makes their profit, while I believe I'm paying a fair price. Greed comes in when the profit exceeds what the consumer believes to be a fair price.

To me, all that indicates is that "the consumer" is not part of the target market for that product. If the consumer doesn't find the item to be worth the asking price, they may decline to purchase it. For example, I declined to purchase a medium format digital back. This doesn't necessarily mean that the manufacturer is "greedy", just that it isn't right for me.  The same is true of the 5D Mark III (I already own a MkII)

That's how this thing called a "market place" works. If "the consumer" in aggregate, really believes the item to be overpriced, the item will fail to sell at that price and the seller will usually find that they get more revenue by lowering their price.

By the way, gradually lowering their price is one way to effectively do "price discrimination" -- that is, if 10 people are willing to pay 3500 and 10 people are willing to pay 3000, you want your revenue to be 65000, not 35000 (if you had a fixed price of 3500) or 60000.

Quote
If it were $3,000 I don't think I'd be complaining at all, actually. Maybe even $3,100. But $3,500? Very optimistic on Canon's part and it's taking advantage of the fact that some people don't actually care about price vs value

I don't understand why anyone is "complaining". No-one is forcing them to buy that or any other product, and it's not as though that is the only body that is compatible with Canon gear. There are a number of other very good camera bodies that will work with the accessories you have.

Quote
(usually this happens when someone has enough money that a $500 difference seems minuscule).

Again, if you're in the target market for this product, AND you're one of the people who needs to own the latest model almost immediately after its release, you probably have a few thousand dollars worth of equipment and really won't sweat $500.

Quote
I can afford it, so I'm not one of those people who's upset because they can't. I just care a lot about the value of what I'm getting.

Again, what is your measure of value ?

briansquibb

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Re: Is video raising cost of bodies? Is it wasted for many shooters?
« Reply #85 on: May 13, 2012, 06:39:50 PM »
Worth = the price you are prepared to pay

Value  = the price you are prepared to pay vs the market value

illogict

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Re: Is video raising cost of bodies? Is it wasted for many shooters?
« Reply #86 on: May 13, 2012, 06:49:13 PM »
Video is not the reason this thing is more expensive. The 5D2 HAD video when it came out and it did not cost this much. Getting rid of video will not change the fact that Canon is getting greedy.

No, getting rid of video won't make the US Dollar  buy more Japanese Yen.

If that was the issue, then almost all new Canon products would be seeing a massive price hike like this, and they aren't.

Then I wonder what explains the high growth of lens prices (http://www.canonpricewatch.com/canon-lenses-better-stocks/) for some years now... Compare to the USD value against the Yen: the dollar lost ⅓ of its value against the yen in five years!
Should have Canon (a Japanese company, may I remind you, whose accounts are done in Yens) really followed it, a lens costing $1000 (= 120000¥) in August 2008 should be $1500 now!

For every product that's gone up in price, I can name one that's stayed the same. Their printers, their powershots, the starter DSLR line, etc.

That's because they're completely different products! Lens are to be expected to stay to the same price over large amounts of time, whereas printers, and low-end DSLRs are only on the market for a (low) fixed amount of time and discontinued. Moreover, they could even almost be sold at a loss as that would be tallied on the accessories (ink and lenses, respectively).

And, on Canon's point of view (accounts in Yen, again), the 5D mk3 cost less for the US consumer than the 5D mk2: 5D2 (+24-105) list price was $20083499, which is 420,000¥, whereas the 5D3 (+24-105) is $20124299, which is only 340,000¥!
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RuneL

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Re: Is video raising cost of bodies? Is it wasted for many shooters?
« Reply #87 on: May 13, 2012, 07:18:39 PM »
I for one like video, for me and many colleagues it has opened up new markets and the ability to do a wider range of jobs with almost ones existing gear. For me it's not wasted. The problem is when customers expect you to deliver both video and photography - neither the photography or video is particularly good.

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Re: Is video raising cost of bodies? Is it wasted for many shooters?
« Reply #87 on: May 13, 2012, 07:18:39 PM »

lady

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Re: Is video raising cost of bodies? Is it wasted for many shooters?
« Reply #88 on: May 13, 2012, 07:34:46 PM »
To me, greedy isn't just wanting sales. "Greedy" is purposely charging a significant amount more for the product than its actual worth with no consideration for the customer.

And how do you determine what a product is "worth" ? We have something called a "market place" that does a very good job of determining what something is "worth".  I put it to you this thing called a market place will sort it out, and neither the manufacturer nor the consumer has the power to dictate what the optimal market price for the item is.

Quote
Canon still makes their profit, while I believe I'm paying a fair price. Greed comes in when the profit exceeds what the consumer believes to be a fair price.

To me, all that indicates is that "the consumer" is not part of the target market for that product. If the consumer doesn't find the item to be worth the asking price, they may decline to purchase it. For example, I declined to purchase a medium format digital back. This doesn't necessarily mean that the manufacturer is "greedy", just that it isn't right for me.  The same is true of the 5D Mark III (I already own a MkII)

That's how this thing called a "market place" works. If "the consumer" in aggregate, really believes the item to be overpriced, the item will fail to sell at that price and the seller will usually find that they get more revenue by lowering their price.

By the way, gradually lowering their price is one way to effectively do "price discrimination" -- that is, if 10 people are willing to pay 3500 and 10 people are willing to pay 3000, you want your revenue to be 65000, not 35000 (if you had a fixed price of 3500) or 60000.

Quote
If it were $3,000 I don't think I'd be complaining at all, actually. Maybe even $3,100. But $3,500? Very optimistic on Canon's part and it's taking advantage of the fact that some people don't actually care about price vs value

I don't understand why anyone is "complaining". No-one is forcing them to buy that or any other product, and it's not as though that is the only body that is compatible with Canon gear. There are a number of other very good camera bodies that will work with the accessories you have.

Quote
(usually this happens when someone has enough money that a $500 difference seems minuscule).

Again, if you're in the target market for this product, AND you're one of the people who needs to own the latest model almost immediately after its release, you probably have a few thousand dollars worth of equipment and really won't sweat $500.

Quote
I can afford it, so I'm not one of those people who's upset because they can't. I just care a lot about the value of what I'm getting.

Again, what is your measure of value ?

Thought I explained it pretty clear in my last post.

We come from different perspectives here, which is why you're not understanding what I'm saying. Things will always continue to sell when priced above their worth/value because there will always be people that won't care enough to wait for the price to drop (I must have this "NOW" mentality). This sort of blind purchasing is extremely common when it comes to brand loyalty (Apple fans, Intel fans, BMW fans) and is often used to justify the purchase price of a product.

First, there's what the product costs to make, then there's the profit margin. Usually there is a nice balance between the vendor selling the products and the company that made the products so each gets a profit they feel comfortable with. Depending on the product we're discussing, the final sales price varies in amount multiplied by the cost to make. Some products sell for 50x what they cost to produce, while others might sell for 1.2x, 3x or even .8x. When nobody cares or does anything about it, these prices stay where they are. When people do care, and sales are being hurt, the prices go down. Some companies (clothing companies) get away with a huge profit while others (video game industry, for example) cannot charge much more than the cost-to-make without causing a huge sales loss.

Ideally a product will be at a price where there is a nice balance between what the consumer pays, what the company profits are, and what the product cost to make. When it isn't people complain. I've seen plenty of professionals with more than enough money to afford the 5D3 pointing out in reviews that the price wasn't equal to the value of the product, especially when considering competition. It's currently overpriced when keeping all of those factors in mind. And yes, I believe Canon will still be making a profit if it cost the same as the D800. Right now they're squeezing out an extra $500 because enough people are willing to pay it (while a whole lot of other people are not).


ScottyP

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Re: Is video raising cost of bodies? Is it wasted for many shooters?
« Reply #89 on: May 13, 2012, 08:06:17 PM »
Video is not the reason this thing is more expensive. The 5D2 HAD video when it came out and it did not cost this much. Getting rid of video will not change the fact that Canon is getting greedy.

No, getting rid of video won't make the US Dollar  buy more Japanese Yen.

If that was the issue, then almost all new Canon products would be seeing a massive price hike like this, and they aren't.

Then I wonder what explains the high growth of lens prices (http://www.canonpricewatch.com/canon-lenses-better-stocks/) for some years now... Compare to the USD value against the Yen: the dollar lost ⅓ of its value against the yen in five years!
Should have Canon (a Japanese company, may I remind you, whose accounts are done in Yens) really followed it, a lens costing $1000 (= 120000¥) in August 2008 should be $1500 now!

For every product that's gone up in price, I can name one that's stayed the same. Their printers, their powershots, the starter DSLR line, etc.

That's because they're completely different products! Lens are to be expected to stay to the same price over large amounts of time, whereas printers, and low-end DSLRs are only on the market for a (low) fixed amount of time and discontinued. Moreover, they could even almost be sold at a loss as that would be tallied on the accessories (ink and lenses, respectively).

And, on Canon's point of view (accounts in Yen, again), the 5D mk3 cost less for the US consumer than the 5D mk2: 5D2 (+24-105) list price was $20083499, which is 420,000¥, whereas the 5D3 (+24-105) is $20124299, which is only 340,000¥!

Exactly!  The Yen-to Dollar exchange rate is the same reason why Honda Civics now cost over $90,000.00 in the US.  er...no, wait.  Honda Civics do NOT cost over $90,000.00.  They cost about the same in America as American cars do.  Hmmmmm.

If Canon wanted to, it could circumvent the exchange rate just as the Japanese car makers do.  Either make the products in Tennessee for sale in America like the Japanese car makers do, or make them in low-wage countries (which they already do), or both.

Could it have something to do with the fact you can easily drive a Nissan for a few years, then a Ford for a few years, then a Honda for a few years, etc... with no problem?  But not so for an entire camera and lens system.  You can't put a Canon Lens on a Nikon body, and you can't put a Nikon lens on a Canon body (without a goofy adapter that sucks).  Therefore, the actual competition between Canon and Nikon is greatly dampened.  Most of the competition is with first-time buyers, who have yet to commit to a system and lock themselves in.  Once you have bought in to one system or another, it is very difficult to liquidate it all and start from scratch buying everything all over again in the competitor's system, so few people will do it.  This highly convenient fact has not gone unnoticed by Canon, who feels freer to charge a lot of money for their products.  As long as they feel enough people are buying, they will keep the prices as high as they possibly can.
The only real competition is from 3rd party lens makers, as they actually DO make lenses that fit all the major camera systems.  Maybe they will step it up on quality.  Or to some extent in the 4/3 convention lenses where several camera bodies accept lenses in that format from their real competitors.
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Re: Is video raising cost of bodies? Is it wasted for many shooters?
« Reply #89 on: May 13, 2012, 08:06:17 PM »