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Author Topic: A cheaper FF body - anytime soon?  (Read 3400 times)

puqq

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A cheaper FF body - anytime soon?
« on: May 13, 2012, 03:10:01 PM »
I am getting inclined to swap my 5D body for mk II mainly for video recording and live view. However, a lower end body with mk III sensor or similar would be even more amazing. Think 60Ds or 600Ds (lower end plastic body, lower end features, but a FF sensor).

Do you think such product is feasible anytime quite soon?

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A cheaper FF body - anytime soon?
« on: May 13, 2012, 03:10:01 PM »

takoman46

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Re: A cheaper FF body - anytime soon?
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2012, 07:02:43 PM »
I am also curious to see what the rumored entry-level FF body might include.  I am currently using both the 5D Mark II and Mark III, but still might be interested in a picking up a cheaper FF body just for fun and possibly as an additional back-up. However, I have my doubts about whether such an entry-level FF body would actually be any better than the Mark II. I mean, the Mark II features are dated... but would an entry-level body be able to produce superior image quality over the Mark II?  After all, the 5D Mark II is only on generation old and would fall into a higher line (labeled 5D) and the Mark III image quality is only slightly better than the Mark II. So in my mind, to expect an entry-level FF body to be equal to a Mark II is like saying it will be very close to a Mark III (without all the great improvements of the Mark III of course). It might actually be better for you to buy a 5D Mark II, but it might be worth it to wait for the entry-level body to be announced first.

I think an entry-level body might be announced this year but would probably end up being released next year sometime. In any case, a Mark II is still a competent body and still blows away everything under it in terms of image quality.

edawg

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Re: A cheaper FF body - anytime soon?
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2012, 02:50:37 AM »
what would be the point of an entry level FF? The sensor would be cheaper therefore the IQ would be handicapped. And they (canon) aren't gonna put all the other III goodies in an entry level body, like autofocus for example. I think if they ever did this it would just be a marketing gimmick. The only benefit to consumers would be you keep your EF lenses if you ever upgrade your body.

puqq

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Re: A cheaper FF body - anytime soon?
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2012, 05:46:45 AM »
Interesting points. I would guess the cheaper body would be deprived from many advance features, like alloy body, pentaprism viewfinder, awesome AF system, level of controls and etc., but retain the mk III sensor. Judging by this, it would probably cost similarly to 2nd hand mkII. I would perhaps stick with advanced features rather than slightly better IQ (my MkI is still good enough!).

In my view, the real advantage of FF cameras is the FF, rather than IQ. My favourite lens is 50mm 1.4, and @1.4 is my favourite style :)

Takoman46's last point is very interesting - mk II will probably drop in price even further when (if) lower end body is introduced. (They would probably cost around the same)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 05:48:35 AM by puqq »

Marsu42

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Re: A cheaper FF body - anytime soon?
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2012, 07:11:41 AM »
Takoman46's last point is very interesting - mk II will probably drop in price even further when (if) lower end body is introduced. (They would probably cost around the same)

The 5d2 price isn't dropping, but used is more like going up last time I looked because of the 5d3 price tag. And if a successor to the 5d2 is introduced (I don't think they'll just phase it out and leave a gap between high-end aps-c and expensive 5d3) the 5d2 will be even more valuable, because it probably will have what is cut from an entry-level ff body. And the 5d2 runs magic lantern, which is essential to video, while it'll take some time to get it to the 5d3 and even more - if ever - to other Canon bodies.

I'm also very interested to see what Canon does after the d800 public relations disaster, because no matter how good the 5d3 might be or how justified the price, Canon is under pressure now. And they can either go the "Canon full frame is premium only" way or counter Sony's tech @Nikon with releasing a cut-down ff version at a lower price like $2000. Whatever they do now imho will determine their strategy for some years to come.

kraats

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Re: A cheaper FF body - anytime soon?
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2012, 07:31:32 AM »
there is already a very nice one out. The canon 5d II. Which will be a very good camera for the years to come.

Marsu42

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Re: A cheaper FF body - anytime soon?
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2012, 07:36:39 AM »
there is already a very nice one out. The canon 5d II. Which will be a very good camera for the years to come.

Agreed it's nice, but I'm pretty sure you won't be able to buy it new for years to come or Canon wouldn't have named the 5d3 as a clear successor. Imho the 5d2 will go out of production as soon as 5d3 production is sufficient and/or they've got something in the ~$2000-$2500 price range ready.

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Re: A cheaper FF body - anytime soon?
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2012, 07:36:39 AM »

elmerpr

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Re: A cheaper FF body - anytime soon?
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2012, 07:45:09 AM »
I would love to see some sort of 7D in FF format but at an afordable price around $1,500. It may sound stupid but Canon may wake up and smell the coffee: the nikon D600 is this exaclty and is around the corner. Many people may not need the nice features of the in-camera software/operational system rich features of the Canon 5D mark III... A more basic camera with fantastic FF IQ and a nice 19 AF system like the 7D would be more than nice to take fantastic pictures using the L lenses. And if Canon take the nikon idea of an affordable FF camera capable of using EF-S lenses even better.

Marsu42

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Re: A cheaper FF body - anytime soon?
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2012, 07:51:22 AM »
And if Canon take the nikon idea of an affordable FF camera capable of using EF-S lenses even better.

Canon engineering decided against this for one reason or another, and I don't think there's any chance they'll change this, unlike dx lenses on fx Nikon cameras. And "Full frame compatibility" is a major selling point for expensive ef lenses from a marketing standpoint.

But Canon managed to put themselves in a corner now: If they revive aps-h or push ff downmarket, people who have invested in rather expensive ef-s lenses (17-55, 60macro, 10-22 or 3rd party ultrawides) won't be happy and might be inclined to switch to Nikon if they'd have to sell a good part of their lenses anyway.

docsavage123

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Re: A cheaper FF body - anytime soon?
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2012, 08:26:11 AM »
I think you over estimate the proposed Nikon D600. It is not a D800 or a D700. It will not have the AF drive motor in it thus meaning it will only work in manual mode with non AF-S lenses like the Nikon D40,D40x,D3100 etc. This will put a lot of buyers off as they will need to get their glass upgraded as well, as they will not be able to run a lot of lenses in auto focus mode, Nikon seems to have AF-S and AF-D variants depending on the motor drive being present in the body.

If I bought the latest camera body and it would not auto focus on my lens I would not be impressed.

The 5D mark II is still the camera to buy for the money no doubt about it. If Canon reduce the price further it will negate the need for them to bring out a budget FF dslr. With or without the crappy AF.
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dilbert

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Re: A cheaper FF body - anytime soon?
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2012, 09:29:26 AM »
And if Canon take the nikon idea of an affordable FF camera capable of using EF-S lenses even better.
...
But Canon managed to put themselves in a corner now: If they revive aps-h or push ff downmarket, people who have invested in rather expensive ef-s lenses (17-55, 60macro, 10-22 or 3rd party ultrawides) won't be happy and might be inclined to switch to Nikon if they'd have to sell a good part of their lenses anyway.

I don't follow. EF-S lenses will still work perfectly fine on compatible cameras. One way to interpret what you're saying is that APS-C cameras don't deserve good, dedicated lenses, which I think is rubbish.

I think you over estimate the proposed Nikon D600. It is not a D800 or a D700. It will not have the AF drive motor in it thus meaning it will only work in manual mode with non AF-S lenses like the Nikon D40,D40x,D3100 etc. This will put a lot of buyers off as they will need to get their glass upgraded as well, as they will not be able to run a lot of lenses in auto focus mode, Nikon seems to have AF-S and AF-D variants depending on the motor drive being present in the body.

Lets see. If you've got a crop-lens for Nikon APS-C then you'll need to buy new full frame lenses for the D600 - no issue there. If you've never before owned Nikon, then you'll need to buy new full frame lenses for the D600 - no issue there. If you've been a Nikon shooter for many years and have not upgraded all of your lenses to not rely on the focus motor in the body, then you will have issues however those very same lenses will probably need updating anything to deliver the required IQ. So I can't see this being an issue. Really.

there is already a very nice one out. The canon 5d II. Which will be a very good camera for the years to come.

Isolated, yes, it will be a very good camera for certain situations. But as other cameras are delivered (perhaps by other manufacturers), the relative good-ness of the 5D2 will diminish.

Interesting points. I would guess the cheaper body would be deprived from many advance features, like alloy body, pentaprism viewfinder, awesome AF system, level of controls and etc., but retain the mk III sensor. Judging by this, it would probably cost similarly to 2nd hand mkII. I would perhaps stick with advanced features rather than slightly better IQ (my MkI is still good enough!).

If they reuse the 5DIII sensor in a cheaper body then all is lost and the camera isn't worth delivering. Now if they used the 1DX sensor, then that could be interesting but it may not sell well in that market space due to not having enough MP. But yes, the areas in which they can make cuts are in the FPS (slower/cheaper CPU), memory cards, alloy body, weather sealing and AF.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 09:33:07 AM by dilbert »

7enderbender

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Re: A cheaper FF body - anytime soon?
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2012, 09:55:10 AM »
Hard to say. I can see a market for this but it may be small. Had a camera like that been around a few years ago I might have entered the digital market much earlier. I never wanted a "crop" sensor or any of that and rather stayed with film until the price for the 5DII came down and I had some cash left over.

For Canon this would be an opportunity to get the last few folks who are still in that position (and they exist) - and sell them EF lenses and lock them in for the future...
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MK5GTI

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Re: A cheaper FF body - anytime soon?
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2012, 11:02:38 AM »
i actually see Nikon & Canon pushing FF to the lower price point as mirrorless like M43 and Sony NEX or even Samsung NX are eating up the APSC DSLR market. selling entry level DSLR (APSC) is a lot harder than before now.

Nikon need the D600 as the D700 doesn't do video and the mp count is low from a marketing stand point, Canon can just keep the 5D2 selling well, even thou the AF is dated. no point of making a entry level FF from Canon to abundant the 5d2

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Re: A cheaper FF body - anytime soon?
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2012, 11:02:38 AM »

dilbert

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Re: A cheaper FF body - anytime soon?
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2012, 12:29:39 PM »
Nikon need the D600 as the D700 doesn't do video and the mp count is low from a marketing stand point, Canon can just keep the 5D2 selling well, even thou the AF is dated. no point of making a entry level FF from Canon to abundant the 5d2

Yes, there is. The 5D2 is nearly 4 years old. Once the D600 arrives, Nikon will have a current, modern, camera with all of the current bells and whistles. The 5D2 will be missing those and when you draw up the list of features to compare (including 24 vs 21 MP), you'll never fall on the side of the 5D2.

preppyak

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Re: A cheaper FF body - anytime soon?
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2012, 12:56:30 PM »
The 5d2 price isn't dropping
Except for, you know, the fact that it did drop in Canon's store ($1759 refurb), and that through Canon Loyalty, you can get a 5DII for $1400ish+ tax. I've seen the used market drop off lately...on sites like Fred Miranda, it's rare to see even a like new body go for more than $1800. Multiple times the 5dII and 24-104 has gone for $2400ish on Ebay Daily Deals.
Quote
I'm also very interested to see what Canon does after the d800 public relations disaster
I don't get this mentality...that its a huge PR disaster. Getting crushed in specs in the Rebel level...sure. At the $3000 price mark, most of the buyers have enough sense to check more than a few specs. The only way it'd be a PR disaster for Canon is if the 5dIII was terrible...significantly worse than the 5DII while charging a premium and all the major pro shooters abandoned them for Nikon. THAT'S a disaster. But, since that hasn't happened (and won't), the only way its a slight disaster for Canon is if they get crushed in sales. And since we won't even be able to guess at that side for another 6+ months, let's hold off on that silly hype.

As for the entry level full-frame, I'd imagine its a ways off. Maybe Photokina, but probably more likely it's a next spring kind of thing. The 5DII still sells well, they've got manufacturing figured out for it...there's no rush. The 5DII is basically already the entry level full-frame offering, if $1500-1800 isn't cheap enough, then no camera will satisfy that market
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 12:58:58 PM by preppyak »

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Re: A cheaper FF body - anytime soon?
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2012, 12:56:30 PM »