Canon EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II Speculation [CR1]

[unfocused]

Take a look at how Pentax is marketing their new K-30. http://www.pentaximaging.com/dslr/K-30_Black#!product-support

There are a several of interesting points here.

Oftentimes on this forum, I read comments that imply that the only thing average consumers care about is more and more megapixels. That other features don't matter. But, really, people care about megapixels because that is what manufacturers told us to care about during the early years of DSLRs. It made sense at the time because the technology was developing rapidly and the sensor advancements from generation to generation were significant.

Now as the technology matures and resolution becomes less important, manufacturers are looking at other features to differentiate themselves.

This is an interesting choice on the part of Pentax.

Of course, it's also interesting because of  the bar it will be setting for Canon, Nikon, Sony and Fuji. The K-30 competes against the 60D, so will Canon respond with some weathersealing on the 70D? At a minimum, the 7DII will need some serious weathersealing to justify the price differential.

(As an aside – when I saw the ad, I wondered what their legal department thought. The ad visual certainly implies that the camera is virtually waterproof and the copy even talks about sand and beaches. It's either incredibly well sealed, they have a generous repair policy or they are prepared for a heck of a class action suit. )

I've never thought that much about weathersealing. But as with any successful ad campaign, this one certainly caught my attention and got me thinking about the advantages of full weather sealing. Now I want it in the 7DII and I didn't even know I did. Good marketing.

The point here is not to turn this into a discussion of the pros and cons of weathersealing, or to do a big comparison between the various levels of the current 7D, 5D and 1D, but to point out that the conventional wisdom that drives many of the discussions on this forum can be quickly upended by what happens in the marketplace.

61 point autofocus...gotta have it; 256,000 ISO...gotta have it; more dynamic range...gotta have it; etc. etc. Marketing raises the expectations. Competition raises the bar. Consumers get a better product. Gotta love capitalism.

[dlleno]

Oftentimes on this forum, I read comments that imply that the only thing average consumers care about is more and more megapixels. That other features don't matter. But, really, people care about megapixels because that is what manufacturers told us to care about during the early years of DSLRs. It made sense at the time because the technology was developing rapidly and the sensor advancements from generation to generation were significant.

 
true, and at the time (for example, from 8 to 10),  a megapixel jump told the essential story of realizable, end-to-end resolving power and also represented the technology frontier.   

Now as the technology matures and resolution becomes less important, manufacturers are looking at other features to differentiate themselves.

I would draw a distinction between megapixels and resolution, and suggest the differentiator should really be end-to-end system resolution, not just the number of megapixels or the theoretical resolving power of the sensor.  Marketing departments should express end to end resolution in a way that is easy to understand, and that includes the capability of the LP filter and the processor as well -- some metric that would differentiate two cameras in a 10 second elevator speech. Maybe it is "effective pixels" I don't know, but some way to express the capability of the entire technology chain.   

I've never thought that much about weathersealing. But as with any successful ad campaign, this one certainly caught my attention and got me thinking about the advantages of full weather sealing. Now I want it in the 7DII and I didn't even know I did. Good marketing.

nice observation!  now I want it more than I did before, and I want full 1D4 capable weather sealing

The point here is not to turn this into a discussion of the pros and cons of weathersealing, or to do a big comparison between the various levels of the current 7D, 5D and 1D, but to point out that the conventional wisdom that drives many of the discussions on this forum can be quickly upended by what happens in the marketplace.

no kidding.  and maybe as the actual number of pixels within the sensor become only part of the story, perhaps we will see some creative marketing on Canon's part, and I for one am looking foward to comparing the vision in my head of what the 7D2 should be, with what Canon sees and actually produces!

[Orangutan]

Re: Pentax weather sealing

I have a co-worker who has a K-20.  He says he uses it in all weather without problem.  He is also an avid water sports person, and uses it in those contexts.  He's never had a problem with water.  It's a single data point, but maybe Pentax weather sealing really is that good.  I'd love to have that on a similarly-priced Canon.

[Marsu42]

I'd love to have that on a similarly-priced Canon.

... but we know it won't happen because Pentax has to gain market share by putting features in affordable bodies that Canon & Nikon reserve for their expensive ones. A pity, since I cannot imagine how some seals would cost only more than a couple of dollars.

[Orangutan]

A pity, since I cannot imagine how some seals would cost only more than a couple of dollars.

Probably a bit more than that: they have to design the structure and controls to work properly with the seals.  I think the expense/difficulty/business "cost" is that they then have to deal with warranty issues related to leakage.   A number of n00bs will falsely assume they can play Jacques Cousteau with them, and cause support costs to increase.  Sure, Pentax has to deal with that too, but at smaller volumes.  And, as you say, Canon and Nikon are in the position of maximizing profit rather than competing for market share. 

I'd pay an extra $50-$75 for a really well-sealed 70D or 7D2....or entry-level FF.

[Marsu42]

Probably a bit more than that: they have to design the structure and controls to work properly with the seals.

But having designed generations of sealed bodies, they should have to open the other drawer "pro" next to the drawer "consumer", not much additional cost in this :-p

I think the expense/difficulty/business "cost" is that they then have to deal with warranty issues related to leakage.

I understood there is no warranty on weather sealing? It may work if you're lucky, but if it fails Canon will always tell "you it's your fault"? If this is the case, then noobs who use their eos for diving shots will help Canon service to make some money.

[dlleno]

I understood there is no warranty on weather sealing? It may work if you're lucky, but if it fails Canon will always tell "you it's your fault"? If this is the case, then noobs who use their eos for diving shots will help Canon service to make some money.

yea I think what Canon is leaning on here is reputation and the fact that "it works" rather than put a guarentee of some sort in place, which would just add cost.  Really, they can produce the same camera for some $$ less without a warranty on the weather sealing, and that cost has nothing to do with how good the seals are,  it has to do with administrating the warranty -- adding call center folks to field claims, writing documentation to support the call center agents, involving the legal dept, etc. etc..   brilliant strategy though;  just $$ in their pocket to skip the warranty.    it will be interesting to see if the Pentax approach will impact the 7D2 though, and if Canon will rest on their "un-warranted" weather sealing laurals or increase the price to cover the costs of a warranty.

7D2 needs to be 'fully' weather sealed in my opinion, just like the 1D4.  in fact, 7D2 should be a lot like the 1D4 imho, although I'm riding the fence re: gripped body.    What I'm not sure of is whether or it would be feasible to adapt the 1D body to APS-C,  though I personally suspect 7D will retain the current body and become the first fully sealed non-gripped body for Canon. 

[trid1977]

I'm interested in the 7D MKII.
I didn't get the MKI because I had expected an Articulating screen. I'd also like multi-spot metering like my T90. the 7D also had that soft focus issue that never seemed to get resolved. And I'd like a bigger sensor than the APS-C. I'm not so interested in more pixels to sacrifice quality of image.

[Marsu42]

I didn't get the MKI because I had expected an Articulating screen.

Your amount of friends with a 7d1 just dropped to zero :-p

it has to do with administrating the warranty -- adding call center folks to field claims, writing documentation to support the call center agents, involving the legal dept, etc. etc..

I think there's no way to legally administer this at all, and I don't think Pentax' sealing is covered by warranty: So there was water in the body and corrosion killed it. There is no way to figure out what happened, so they'd have to replace the body in every single case - and since the non-d1 bodies are not sealed for heavy duty use, that's indeed a price problem.

[pj1974]

I have the Canon 7D, and believe any 7DmkII will be an APS-C (1.6x crop) with quite a similar feature set as the current 7D. 

It appears the current areas Canon might be looking to improve are:
 - basic IQ (eg lower noise at respective ISOs, higher dynamic range)
 - possibly AF / metering improvements
 - maybe minor tweaks to video
 - slight FPS increase

However even if the last 3 didn't improve, I would be interested to upgrade WHEN my 7D retires / dies, etc.  I have taken tens of thousands of great photos with my 7D including landscape, wildlife, macros, etc.   

The build quality, handling and overall feature set are fine for me. A slight improvement to image quality would be all I ask for.  But I don't want it to go full frame, nor APS-H (1.3x crop). If an articulated screen is included, that could be good for some awkward to position macros (for which I often use live view), and certain videoing (which I do rarely).

Let's see what the future holds.  Competition and advances in technology are good. 

Paul

[unfocused]

I don't think Pentax' sealing is covered by warranty:

Warranty probably won't matter much. Here in the U.S. there will be trial lawyers falling all over themselves to file a class action suit if Pentax doesn't stand behind their claims. The picture of the camera with water splashing all over it...the statements about beaches (sand being probably a far bigger risk than water). Those would be hard to overcome.

Of course, the attorney's will settle. They'll get several million for their efforts and the customers will get a certificate for 5% off their next Pentax. Greetings from the Land of Lawsuits.

[Richard8971]

Moreover, today's 16MP 1D4 is still suprior to todays 7D in many respects...
 
Consider that you can purchase a 1D4 today, which exceeds these requirements...

The 1D4 is aging, but still spanks the 7D (except for price!), so the 7D2 intro would have to leap frog the 1D4 in my opinion (even if a breakthrough in price per performance).

I agree with you 100% esp on the PRICE issue. The 1D4 better be a better camera at twice the cost of the 7. Any upgrade of the 7 to equal/exceed the 1D4 (in terms of overall features/speed/image quality) would perhaps raise the price??? Yes? A 7D upgrade that costs over 2 grand would be a real stetch for me to justify it (because I recently spent 1550 bucks on my new 7) and that's the biggest reason I don't own a 1D4, it's outside of my price range.

The 5D3 is also placed (price wise) just outiside of what I can justify spending on a camera. So instead I purchased a lightly used 5D2 from a friend who upgraded to a new 5D3 for 1600 bucks and it came with a battery grip! I couldn't be happier, the 5D2 is an awesome camera.

I love my 7 and it's speed. It's worth every penny spent. I would imagine I will be using it for years to come and enjoying every minute of it. Any upgrade would have to be really impressive to make me want to upgrade, and I mean REALLY impressive.

D

[babarasghar]

1DX- Flagship full frame

5DIII - Mainstream full frame

7D2 - Flagship APSC

4D or XD? - Entry level FF (something has to come here against D600 of Nikon)

70D - Semi Pro APSC

Rebel T4i - Entry Level APSC

and i think from price point of view if 7D2 remains an APSC n there is no cheap FF from Canon ... only hardcore wildlife PGers will go for it n it will still be a famous body for many but many APSC landscapers and others currently on APSC would be happy to switch brands for a cheap FF
i say even lowering the price of 5D2 would make it a good enough competitor against 600D ...
it ticks all the requirements of a cheap entry level FF body in present scenario ... and i think what canon couldnt do with 5d3 ... a cheaper 5d2 might do it again for them .. ie denting the sales figuers of D800/E

but canon n nikon have never played like Nvidia n AMD/ATI have ... pitching a product directly against oppositions product ...
either a step-up or a step-down features at a premium price ... thus making life of consumers miserable n difficult to decide what to choose

[Richard8971]

But I don't want it to go full frame, nor APS-H (1.3x crop).

Paul

You know Paul, I used to say the same thing until I got my 5D2. No comparison in image quality between the it and the 7D. However, that being said, the 5D2 cannot touch my 7 (for wildlife) in terms of overall brute speed and handling. It's a great camera and I enjoy being able to switch between the two as the need may be. It would be interesting if a new 7D2 came with a FF sensor... but it's not likely.

Might be time to get the 5D3, but then my wife and I would be fighting over it all the time! 

D

[Richard8971]

7D2 - Flagship APSC

I would agree there, but any upgrade would have to rival what the 7 is now, and it will be intresting to see what Canon comes up with, if and when they decide to repace the 7D1.

D