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Author Topic: Canon EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II Speculation [CR1]  (Read 61308 times)

dlleno

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Re: Canon EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II Speculation [CR1]
« Reply #210 on: June 08, 2012, 10:59:51 AM »
I find unlikely that the new crops will have a different sensor since in the past 550D, 600D, 60D and 7D all shared the same sensor. We should wait for a review to see how this new sensor performs.

thats true, and new sensors first appear in xxxD frequently, sometimes in xxD, and of course the 18MP sensor appeared in the 7D first before propgating out to the other crops.  But in all cases the "new" sensor propogated out to the other crops.   So in that sense I agree with you here, that if this truly is a new technology cycle, and higher ISO performing sensor, it will certainly appear in the 70D and even the 7D2 if it stays a 1.6. 

But -- I'm just not  yet convinced that this 18MP "new" sensor is actually new.  Absent are statements such as "new,  low-noise", or other magical terms, which I would have expected -- not just a spec list of ISO ranges, which to me sounds more like they slapped  Digic 5 on top of the 7D sensor.  To be sure, we'll have to wait a few days for the field testers to really discover its ISO performance.  I worry that Canon took the same, tired old 18MP Sensor, re-fabbed it for phase detection AF, but made no real step forward in the technology cycle, i.e. ISO performance.  I certainly hope I'm wrong; just being pessimistic.   

what am I missing here (besides DxO telling us it sucks)?

Quote
BTW, ISO 3200 on a crop is way too much for the actual technology. Give me a fully usable ISO 1600 and I'm happy.

+1 on fully usable 1600.  From what I've seen, 7D is a measureable improvement over the 40D, for example, but it doesn't make you do the hokey pokey , imho:-D.  Digic 5 may make additional incremental (if marginal) improvments -- but what we really  need is a game changer at 1600 and for that I think we will need a new sensor technology cycle or APS-H, not a re-worked version of the old 18. 

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Re: Canon EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II Speculation [CR1]
« Reply #210 on: June 08, 2012, 10:59:51 AM »

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: Canon EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II Speculation [CR1]
« Reply #211 on: June 08, 2012, 11:15:31 AM »

I find unlikely that the new crops will have a different sensor since in the past 550D, 600D, 60D and 7D all shared the same sensor. We should wait for a review to see how this new sensor performs.

BTW, ISO 3200 on a crop is way too much for the actual technology. Give me a fully usable ISO 1600 and I'm happy.

I get a little bit frustrated, I see some people say they shoot 1600 on a 7D all day long, and others complain... same with just about every other camera I see... I've been considereing 5D2, 7D and 70D for a while and I see all sorts of different things.

I see a picture from a 7D at ISO 1000 or so and say to myself that looks nice, and then see 5D2 owners saying how horrible the 7D was at anything above 200.    I myself have a 450D so I have no clue what to think at times.

It's really a matter of perspective - if you own and use and are used the the IQ of the 5d2, then yeah your bar is set by that quality and its hard to argue around that.  But, if all you have is a 7D, then your forced to work with what you have, and do the best job you can do with it.  I got my 7D in aug 2010, and have been mostly adding glass to the bag since then (10-22, 24-70 2.8, 70-200 2.8).  This year with the mkiii released I have definitely found myself pondering the move to FF - but - I ended up opting to go for lighting instead (2 ab800's, softbox, beauty dish, grids, and a vagabond mini).  Basically, I felt that the better bang for the buck was lighting.  (I was about $200 shy of the mkiii before ordering the lights)  I do not at all regret that decision...

With all that said, I shoot in lots of different conditions as an event, portrait and wedding tog, I use every ISO available from 100-6400.  Do I like shooting at 3200 and up?  No, I cringe when the lighting is that aweful.  But in terms of noise and IQ, I do find lots of keepers at those higher ISO's.  It really boils down to who your clients are and what your prices are.  Most in the general public won't be pixel peeping.  Most clients for weddings won't want anything larger than a 11x14 print, with the exception of the formal shots and most of those would be done outdoors where your ISO should be in the 100-800 range...

Sometimes, it's not the gear your using, its the photographer.  Knowing your equipment and its limitations and how to wrk with those limitations....

Here's 2 done using my 7D - the wedding image was all natural light, using 70-200 lens. the portrait shot was done using 24-70 lens, and both AB800's...
Owns 5Dmkiii, 6D, 16-35mm, 24mm 1.4, 70-200mm 2.8, 50mm 1.4, 85 mm 1.8, 100mm 2.8 macro, 1-600RT, 2 430 EX's, 1 video light

Albi86

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Re: Canon EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II Speculation [CR1]
« Reply #212 on: June 08, 2012, 12:11:41 PM »

But -- I'm just not  yet convinced that this 18MP "new" sensor is actually new.  Absent are statements such as "new,  low-noise", or other magical terms, which I would have expected -- not just a spec list of ISO ranges, which to me sounds more like they slapped  Digic 5 on top of the 7D sensor.  To be sure, we'll have to wait a few days for the field testers to really discover its ISO performance.  I worry that Canon took the same, tired old 18MP Sensor, re-fabbed it for phase detection AF, but made no real step forward in the technology cycle, i.e. ISO performance.  I certainly hope I'm wrong; just being pessimistic.   

what am I missing here (besides DxO telling us it sucks)?


I sincerely hope you're wrong :P
As far as I've read, yes, sensors are different. The old one counts 18.7 total MP, while the new one 18.5. I take it for a hint that they're produced differently, although I cannot tell if differently means better too. Maybe Canon is reserving the flashiest marketing strikes for higher-end cameras.
But we're going to discover it quite soon anyway.

I get a little bit frustrated, I see some people say they shoot 1600 on a 7D all day long, and others complain... same with just about every other camera I see... I've been considereing 5D2, 7D and 70D for a while and I see all sorts of different things.

I see a picture from a 7D at ISO 1000 or so and say to myself that looks nice, and then see 5D2 owners saying how horrible the 7D was at anything above 200.    I myself have a 450D so I have no clue what to think at times.

People who say that the 7D has a bad IQ and can't produce sharp pictures should seriously consider another hobby. Probably photography is not their thing.

That said, it depends a lot on what you do in post-processing. If you start pulling out details from the shadows, sharpening, tweaking things around... then yes, the old generation of crop sensors shows its limits. I never get fully tweakable images above ISO 400. After that it's all a matter of compromise. Images @ISO 800 are ok if they're good to begin with, otherwise not so cool. They can still look fine, even @ ISO 1600 and 3200, but only if you down-size them a lot. If you want to get sharp large prints at such ISO settings you need a FF. Or a better crop sensor. Now, raise that limit from ISO 400 to 1600 and I don't know what to do with a FF :)

dlleno

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Re: Canon EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II Speculation [CR1]
« Reply #213 on: June 08, 2012, 12:50:18 PM »

But -- I'm just not  yet convinced that this 18MP "new" sensor is actually new.  Absent are statements such as "new,  low-noise", or other magical terms, which I would have expected -- not just a spec list of ISO ranges, which to me sounds more like they slapped  Digic 5 on top of the 7D sensor.  To be sure, we'll have to wait a few days for the field testers to really discover its ISO performance.  I worry that Canon took the same, tired old 18MP Sensor, re-fabbed it for phase detection AF, but made no real step forward in the technology cycle, i.e. ISO performance.  I certainly hope I'm wrong; just being pessimistic.   

what am I missing here (besides DxO telling us it sucks)?


I sincerely hope you're wrong :P
As far as I've read, yes, sensors are different. The old one counts 18.7 total MP, while the new one 18.5. I take it for a hint that they're produced differently, although I cannot tell if differently means better too. Maybe Canon is reserving the flashiest marketing strikes for higher-end cameras.
But we're going to discover it quite soon anyway.

ok this is good -- the first real evidence that the sensor itself is a different animal, i.e. that we have an 18.5MP beast instead of 18.7.  I sincerely hope I'm wrong too -- this would be very good if the 18.5MP sensor actually represented the next generation in ISO/IQ from the sensor itself.  I would even  do the hokey pokey;  just not here :D

I get a little bit frustrated, I see some people say they shoot 1600 on a 7D all day long, and others complain... same with just about every other camera I see... I've been considereing 5D2, 7D and 70D for a while and I see all sorts of different things.

I see a picture from a 7D at ISO 1000 or so and say to myself that looks nice, and then see 5D2 owners saying how horrible the 7D was at anything above 200.    I myself have a 450D so I have no clue what to think at times.

People who say that the 7D has a bad IQ and can't produce sharp pictures should seriously consider another hobby. Probably photography is not their thing.

That said, it depends a lot on what you do in post-processing. If you start pulling out details from the shadows, sharpening, tweaking things around... then yes, the old generation of crop sensors shows its limits. I never get fully tweakable images above ISO 400. After that it's all a matter of compromise. Images @ISO 800 are ok if they're good to begin with, otherwise not so cool. They can still look fine, even @ ISO 1600 and 3200, but only if you down-size them a lot. If you want to get sharp large prints at such ISO settings you need a FF. Or a better crop sensor. Now, raise that limit from ISO 400 to 1600 and I don't know what to do with a FF :)
[/quote]

yea thats not a lot different from my 40D, although there is still a clear advantage to the 7D.  also -- 7D has monstor pixel density and very find pixel pitch, which means support and vibration control are all the more important. I'm really hoping this new 18.5MP sensor can, along with digic 5, deliver reliable/usable 1600 a cut above today's 7D. 

BRNexus6

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Re: Canon EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II Speculation [CR1]
« Reply #214 on: June 08, 2012, 01:12:47 PM »
I want all the video features from the 5D Mark lll, swivel screen and headphone jack. Hopefully a new sensor with a one stop improvement in noise at high ISO compared to the 7D. 

x-vision

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Re: Canon EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II Speculation [CR1]
« Reply #215 on: June 08, 2012, 01:31:42 PM »

But -- I'm just not  yet convinced that this 18MP "new" sensor is actually new. 

I sincerely hope you're wrong :P

If you think that the 5DIII has a "new" sensor compared to the 5DII, then yes, the 650D's sensor is also "new".




RLPhoto

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Re: Canon EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II Speculation [CR1]
« Reply #216 on: June 08, 2012, 02:06:35 PM »

I find unlikely that the new crops will have a different sensor since in the past 550D, 600D, 60D and 7D all shared the same sensor. We should wait for a review to see how this new sensor performs.

BTW, ISO 3200 on a crop is way too much for the actual technology. Give me a fully usable ISO 1600 and I'm happy.

I get a little bit frustrated, I see some people say they shoot 1600 on a 7D all day long, and others complain... same with just about every other camera I see... I've been considereing 5D2, 7D and 70D for a while and I see all sorts of different things.

I see a picture from a 7D at ISO 1000 or so and say to myself that looks nice, and then see 5D2 owners saying how horrible the 7D was at anything above 200.    I myself have a 450D so I have no clue what to think at times.

It's really a matter of perspective - if you own and use and are used the the IQ of the 5d2, then yeah your bar is set by that quality and its hard to argue around that.  But, if all you have is a 7D, then your forced to work with what you have, and do the best job you can do with it.  I got my 7D in aug 2010, and have been mostly adding glass to the bag since then (10-22, 24-70 2.8, 70-200 2.8).  This year with the mkiii released I have definitely found myself pondering the move to FF - but - I ended up opting to go for lighting instead (2 ab800's, softbox, beauty dish, grids, and a vagabond mini).  Basically, I felt that the better bang for the buck was lighting.  (I was about $200 shy of the mkiii before ordering the lights)  I do not at all regret that decision...

With all that said, I shoot in lots of different conditions as an event, portrait and wedding tog, I use every ISO available from 100-6400.  Do I like shooting at 3200 and up?  No, I cringe when the lighting is that aweful.  But in terms of noise and IQ, I do find lots of keepers at those higher ISO's.  It really boils down to who your clients are and what your prices are.  Most in the general public won't be pixel peeping.  Most clients for weddings won't want anything larger than a 11x14 print, with the exception of the formal shots and most of those would be done outdoors where your ISO should be in the 100-800 range...

Sometimes, it's not the gear your using, its the photographer.  Knowing your equipment and its limitations and how to wrk with those limitations....

Here's 2 done using my 7D - the wedding image was all natural light, using 70-200 lens. the portrait shot was done using 24-70 lens, and both AB800's...

Yep, I shoot all the time from 100-1600 ISO on the 7D. No hesititaion with that range but, I cringe when it gets to 3200-6400 ISO but I know thats the limit. if its a dire situation, the 12800 ISO setting is the last thing I use but its saved me before.

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Re: Canon EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II Speculation [CR1]
« Reply #216 on: June 08, 2012, 02:06:35 PM »

Marsu42

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Re: Canon EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II Speculation [CR1]
« Reply #217 on: June 08, 2012, 02:52:32 PM »
BTW, ISO 3200 on a crop is way too much for the actual technology. Give me a fully usable ISO 1600 and I'm happy.

+1 - but it won't happen with the 70d, only the ff 5d3 has *fully* usable iso 1600 retaining dynamic range (!) and very low noise.

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Re: Canon EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II Speculation [CR1]
« Reply #217 on: June 08, 2012, 02:52:32 PM »