Canon are you listening...?? NIKON D600

[Kernuak]

How do you know that the "non-pro, photo-enthusiasts segment of the market" are "the guys who buy by far the largest share of higher-end, high-margin lenses and speedlites." I'm curious is you have any statistics that backs up your claim, or if it's pure speculation. If I interpret your statement correctly, then it sounds like you think that it's hobbyists that purchase expensive L-series lenses and accessories in the greatest quantities?

Because photo-enthusiast hobbyists vastly out number working pros by a zillion to one?

Even a tiny fraction of hobbyists buying L lenses would exceed the total number of working pros. The exceptions *might* be the extremely long L primes (400, 600, etc), but even there, there exists a huge number of non-pro nature photographers that use these regularly.

I agree that there is a vast majority of hobbyists compared to working pro's, but how many hobbyists have the budget to spend on such a camera and or L lenses?  Unless they have large chunks of disposable income, and or are neuro, then most stick to their budgets (i.e. whatever they can buy at costco/best buy).  But if you guys find any data backing your idea up that hobbyiests in large numbers are buying $2000+ cameras and or lenses, or even have $2000+ invested total in camera gear, it would be interesting to see.

You can tick me down as having more than $2000 in camera gear.

Okay, I stand corrected, hobbiests other than neuro and briansquibb =)

You'd better add me to the list too . Although I strive for professional quality (like Brian, Neuro and many others) and I have licenced some images and sold some prints, so I have made money out of it, even if I am making a loss overall. It's a real pain having to do a tax return for the privilege of that loss-making though .
That said, while hobbyists do outnumber professionals, the vast number of those hobbyists don't have a huge arseanl of lenses I'd imagine. Many have 3-4 lenses at most, so they aren't really the major target market for the higher end bodies. Using any figures that may (or not) be available for the number of hobbyists would be entirely misleading. It's also pretty irrelevant, as the purpose of a camera is to use it, not to analyse the quoted specifications and decide on which is the "deficient" camera without actually trying any out.

[AvTvM]

..
For someone purchasing camera gear as a hobby, I sense a lot of anger in your tone. Why get mad about something that you're supposed to be doing for fun? If Nikon has the better product for your needs, just switch and be happy. I don't see what the big stink is about.

Yes, my Canon gear lets me make good and sometimes even amazing pictures. Most of the time doing so is a great experience and fun.

BUT ...
what makes me and so many other Canon users increasingly mad at our current supplier, is what I would call "fully justified buyers remorse".

When I bought my first DSLR in May 2005, I decided on Canon as my system supplier because the 350D was superior to Nikons D70 in virtually every aspect. Canon EOS Cameras all delivered superior image quality and better value than Nikion's competing products then. Canon CMOS sensors and DIGIC processors ruled supreme - resoulution, Hi-ISO noise, image quality, operational speed.  Eyually important, Canon had a much broader and deeper lens lineup, that generally cost about 20% less than roughly equivalent Nikon lenses.

Within the next few years all of that has reversed. Nikon has not only caught up but in 2012 has leapfrogged Canon: more resolution and at the same time better DR, cleaner images at low ISO and even at Hi ISO - and all of this for significantly less money. And Nikon's lens setup today is on par with Canon - with the notable exception of a few special lenses that are more important for Pro-photographers (fisheye zoom, TS-E 17, 24 II, superteles Mk. II). 

I have been watching with growing dismay how Canon is diverting more and more of their attention and resources to all the video crap in DSLRs which I do not need and want, rather than on creating the world's best still photo cameras, competing full blast with Nikon. I am sick and tired of the excessive market differentiation and purposful crippling of cameras even in terms of ultracheapbut useful firmware features [e.g., Auto-ISO on my 7D compared to any Nikon camera!].  I am sick and tired of constant massive price increases with little if any additional value to me as paying customer.  I am sick and tired having to pay extra for every lens hood on evry non-L lens.  I am sick and tired watching, that I could be using better cameras for less money had I only chosen Nikon over Canon. And it amkes me angry that I may end up having to sell my gear at a big loss, just because Canon is not able to effectively compete with Nikon any longer.

And whether you like it or not: I will not ask for your permission before I complain and I will do so as long as I please and certainly as long as Canon does not finally get their act together and sells me cameras and gear  that is clearly better than any competitive product or at least on par AND not more expensive.

[UrbanVoyeur]

I have been watching with growing dismay how Canon is diverting more and more of their attention and resources to all the video crap in DSLRs which I do not need and want, rather than on creating the world's best still photo cameras, competing full blast with Nikon. I am sick and tired of the excessive market differentiation and purposful crippling of cameras even in terms of ultracheapbut useful firmware features [e.g., Auto-ISO on my 7D compared to any Nikon camera!].  I am sick and tired of constant massive price increases with little if any additional value to me as paying customer.  I am sick and tired having to pay extra for every lens hood on evry non-L lens.  I am sick and tired watching, that I could be using better cameras for less money had I only chosen Nikon over Canon. And it amkes me angry that I may end up having to sell my gear at a big loss, just because Canon is not able to effectively compete with Nikon any longer.

And whether you like it or not: I will not ask for your permission before I complain and I will do so as long as I please and certainly as long as Canon does not finally get their act together and sells me cameras and gear  that is clearly better than any competitive product or at least on par AND not more expensive.

I agree.  I wonder if Canon is trying to position itself as a premium brand - like Apple is now, or Sony used to be in TV's and electronics. Not the super high end like Leica, but the most expensive of the general consumer gear.

It could be a more profitable strategy. I don't know.

[Actionpix]

I do not agree with Canon pricing new lenses double the price of the predecessors is a bad thing. In fact it is a good thing. My current L gear will look like a bargain when I sell it, second hand, for more than I paid for it new. This way it is more easy to change system and in fact I have been making pictures for free till now.

[joemod]

..
For someone purchasing camera gear as a hobby, I sense a lot of anger in your tone. Why get mad about something that you're supposed to be doing for fun? If Nikon has the better product for your needs, just switch and be happy. I don't see what the big stink is about.

Yes, my Canon gear lets me make good and sometimes even amazing pictures. Most of the time doing so is a great experience and fun.

BUT ...
what makes me and so many other Canon users increasingly mad at our current supplier, is what I would call "fully justified buyers remorse".

When I bought my first DSLR in May 2005, I decided on Canon as my system supplier because the 350D was superior to Nikons D70 in virtually every aspect. Canon EOS Cameras all delivered superior image quality and better value than Nikion's competing products then. Canon CMOS sensors and DIGIC processors ruled supreme - resoulution, Hi-ISO noise, image quality, operational speed.  Eyually important, Canon had a much broader and deeper lens lineup, that generally cost about 20% less than roughly equivalent Nikon lenses.

Within the next few years all of that has reversed. Nikon has not only caught up but in 2012 has leapfrogged Canon: more resolution and at the same time better DR, cleaner images at low ISO and even at Hi ISO - and all of this for significantly less money. And Nikon's lens setup today is on par with Canon - with the notable exception of a few special lenses that are more important for Pro-photographers (fisheye zoom, TS-E 17, 24 II, superteles Mk. II). 

I have been watching with growing dismay how Canon is diverting more and more of their attention and resources to all the video crap in DSLRs which I do not need and want, rather than on creating the world's best still photo cameras, competing full blast with Nikon. I am sick and tired of the excessive market differentiation and purposful crippling of cameras even in terms of ultracheapbut useful firmware features [e.g., Auto-ISO on my 7D compared to any Nikon camera!].  I am sick and tired of constant massive price increases with little if any additional value to me as paying customer.  I am sick and tired having to pay extra for every lens hood on evry non-L lens.  I am sick and tired watching, that I could be using better cameras for less money had I only chosen Nikon over Canon. And it amkes me angry that I may end up having to sell my gear at a big loss, just because Canon is not able to effectively compete with Nikon any longer.

And whether you like it or not: I will not ask for your permission before I complain and I will do so as long as I please and certainly as long as Canon does not finally get their act together and sells me cameras and gear  that is clearly better than any competitive product or at least on par AND not more expensive.

Just to add to that. I bought yesterday my first L lens (24-105 f4, YAY!) and the man at the store (one of Athens' most popular) was very much puzzled on Canon's marketing policy. He even told me, that he most probably won't stock any of new Canon L lenses because they are pretty much more expensive than the older models or Nikon's counterparts.
I admit though that Greece is not Canon's primary target so that won't matter much to Canon.

[hyles]

I think that before complainig about canon answer to d600... we should at least wait for the d600 to be true and not a rumor.
After that we can talk about everything.
But just beeing sick about rumored cameras doesn't seem right to me. I mean, if you need a FF body now, you have plenty.
D800, 5dIII, d700 5DII, you can allways seek second hand 5D, 1Dsx... If you need it... If not, then just keep talkin about nothing and wait to see what will happen.
Diego

[Marsu42]

Just to add to that. I bought yesterday my first L lens (24-105 f4, YAY!) and the man at the store (one of Athens' most popular) was very much puzzled on Canon's marketing policy. He even told me, that he most probably won't stock any of new Canon L lenses because they are pretty much more expensive than the older models or Nikon's counterparts. I admit though that Greece is not Canon's primary target so that won't matter much to Canon.

It's might be not Greece, but the kind of shop - many retailers have not the kind of customers who buy L lenses at $1500+ and thus are well-advised to stock aps-c, kits or 3rd party gear. But still - I'm interested to see how many shops in Berlin will have Canon's 24-70ii on display and in stock.

Off topic, and if for the reason alone this might actually be helpful: You know the 24-105L is the one L lens that is to be found rather cheap used because it's a kit lens and many people dump it for this reason? If you want to save some money, I guess you can still return it and look on ebay, craiglist or whatever else you've got down there.

[Wrathwilde]

BUT ...
what makes me and so many other Canon users increasingly mad at our current supplier, is what I would call "fully justified buyers remorse".

When I bought my first DSLR in May 2005, I decided on Canon as my system supplier because the 350D was superior to Nikons D70 in virtually every aspect. Canon EOS Cameras all delivered superior image quality and better value than Nikion's competing products then. Canon CMOS sensors and DIGIC processors ruled supreme - resoulution, Hi-ISO noise, image quality, operational speed.  Eyually important, Canon had a much broader and deeper lens lineup, that generally cost about 20% less than roughly equivalent Nikon lenses.

Within the next few years all of that has reversed. Nikon has not only caught up but in 2012 has leapfrogged Canon: more resolution and at the same time better DR, cleaner images at low ISO and even at Hi ISO - and all of this for significantly less money. And Nikon's lens setup today is on par with Canon - with the notable exception of a few special lenses that are more important for Pro-photographers (fisheye zoom, TS-E 17, 24 II, superteles Mk. II). 

I have been watching with growing dismay how Canon is diverting more and more of their attention and resources to all the video crap in DSLRs which I do not need and want, rather than on creating the world's best still photo cameras, competing full blast with Nikon. I am sick and tired of the excessive market differentiation and purposful crippling of cameras even in terms of ultracheapbut useful firmware features [e.g., Auto-ISO on my 7D compared to any Nikon camera!].  I am sick and tired of constant massive price increases with little if any additional value to me as paying customer.  I am sick and tired having to pay extra for every lens hood on evry non-L lens.  I am sick and tired watching, that I could be using better cameras for less money had I only chosen Nikon over Canon. And it amkes me angry that I may end up having to sell my gear at a big loss, just because Canon is not able to effectively compete with Nikon any longer.

And whether you like it or not: I will not ask for your permission before I complain and I will do so as long as I please and certainly as long as Canon does not finally get their act together and sells me cameras and gear  that is clearly better than any competitive product or at least on par AND not more expensive.

Whiny, Bitchy, Angry and Self Entitled... +1, would laugh at again.

By the way, Canon has got their act together, it's just not the act you've deluded yourself into thinking you need.  Secondly, maybe if you had your crap together... then price wouldn't be an issue. I seriously doubt Canon's cameras are what's limiting your photography.

Cheers,
Wrathwilde

[Axilrod]

I have been watching with growing dismay how Canon is diverting more and more of their attention and resources to all the video crap in DSLRs which I do not need and want, rather than on creating the world's best still photo cameras, competing full blast with Nikon. I am sick and tired of the excessive market differentiation and purposful crippling of cameras even in terms of ultracheapbut useful firmware features [e.g., Auto-ISO on my 7D compared to any Nikon camera!].  I am sick and tired of constant massive price increases with little if any additional value to me as paying customer.  I am sick and tired having to pay extra for every lens hood on evry non-L lens.  I am sick and tired watching, that I could be using better cameras for less money had I only chosen Nikon over Canon. And it amkes me angry that I may end up having to sell my gear at a big loss, just because Canon is not able to effectively compete with Nikon any longer.

And whether you like it or not: I will not ask for your permission before I complain and I will do so as long as I please and certainly as long as Canon does not finally get their act together and sells me cameras and gear  that is clearly better than any competitive product or at least on par AND not more expensive.

First off, if you think the D800 is better at high ISO's than the 5DIII you need to have your eyes checked.  As for Canon diverting too many resources towards video, that's just not true.  The 5DIII had minimal video upgrades and TONS of still upgrades.  And the video feature on the 5DII required basically no effort, they had no idea it would take off in the video world like it did.  Sure they may be marketing their cameras towards video shooters more than before, but it's pretty clear that most of their efforts went towards stills with the 5DIII.  And if you took care of your Canon gear and kept the boxes you should have no trouble at all getting back the majority of what you invested (unless we are talking about really old bodies).  Canon glass holds it's value extremely well and I would lose next to nothing if I got rid of my stuff (It would be more likely that I'd make a bit on them).  Remember, just because you hate Canon doesn't mean everyone else does, there are plenty of people still willing to pay top dollar for used Canon gear. 

If you haven't noticed, everything is more expensive nowadays, our economy is in the crapper and the dollar simply isn't worth what it was 5 years ago, I think some of the price increases are justified.  People keep comparing the 5DIII to the CURRENT price of the 5DII, forgetting that it debuted at $700 less than the 5DIII did, it's really not that much of a difference considering the 5DIII is a far superior camera.  Regardless, the price of the 5DIII being "overpriced" is totally an opinion, it wouldn't be selling like it was if everyone felt that way. 

No matter what you buy there will always be a more expensive version, and people generally just buy what they can afford and don't complain about what they can't.  I'd love a Ferrari, but it's too damn expensive for me, but I'm not going to write Ferrari and demand that they stop ripping people off and make a car that I can afford.  That's just a way to blame someone else for why I can't have something.

Go ahead and switch over to Nikon, Canon has way too many happy users to respond to whining on a rumor forum so I doubt this will get you anywhere.  Try fredmiranda or craigslist to sell your gear.   

[Axilrod]

I do not agree with Canon pricing new lenses double the price of the predecessors is a bad thing. In fact it is a good thing. My current L gear will look like a bargain when I sell it, second hand, for more than I paid for it new. This way it is more easy to change system and in fact I have been making pictures for free till now.

What lenses aside from the 24-70 are double in price?  And the 24-70 v1 is $1599 at B&H, $1599 x 2 is $3198, and the 24-70 II is supposed to be $2300.  Not to mention it's replacing a 10 year old design, is much more compact, and from what I hear it's an incredible lens.  If it's anything like the 70-200 II I may seriously consider it, the sharpness of primes out of a zoom is worth the price IMO.

[Axilrod]

i dont know where you buy.. but here i can get a nikon 24-70mm f2.8 for 1499 euro.
and a nikon Nikon 70-200mm 2.8G AF-S VR II ED would cost me 1799 euro.

if i buy the latest canon models i have to pay 700+300 euro more (the same reseller).

so no i don´t see much of a price difference.
especially not with the "new" canon "price strategy".... i have to pay less for some nikon glas.

Did you look up the Nikon prices at B&H and the Canon prices on ebay from the crazy people that try to sell lenses for $1k over msrp or something?  This just isn't true, the Nikon 24-70 is $1886 from B&H (which is still a good bit more than the current 24-70) and the 70-200 is $2396 which is almost $100 more than the Canon 70-200 II (which is arguably the best zoom lens in the world). 

And no one really knows anything about the new 24-70, how do you know it's not worth it?  And when the 24-70 I was announced the press release said MSRP would be $2100 and it ended up being much less, the same could happen with the new one.

[Marsu42]

And no one really knows anything about the new 24-70, how do you know it's not worth it?

For the same reason, I was recently wondering why lots of people recommend the 24-70ii as a perfect lens if no one's seen it until today, and this started long ago once it was rumored. So to be fair, there might be rather a tendency here to think upcoming Canon gear will be stellar, while Nikon is out to produce vaporware ... just noticing.

Still, if rumors and only announced products would be treated equally from any manufacturer, I still think discussing upcoming Nikon bodies from a Canon perspective has its place here, because the competition will influence what Canon does and what we all will probably buy next.

[V8Beast]

BUT ...
what makes me and so many other Canon users increasingly mad at our current supplier, is what I would call "fully justified buyers remorse".

 I am sick and tired of the excessive market differentiation and purposful crippling of cameras even in terms of ultracheapbut useful firmware features [e.g., Auto-ISO on my 7D compared to any Nikon camera!].  I am sick and tired of constant massive price increases with little if any additional value to me as paying customer.  I am sick and tired having to pay extra for every lens hood on evry non-L lens.  I am sick and tired watching, that I could be using better cameras for less money had I only chosen Nikon over Canon. And it amkes me angry that I may end up having to sell my gear at a big loss, just because Canon is not able to effectively compete with Nikon any longer.

Like I said, I sense way too much anger regarding something that's supposed to be a hobby. Perhaps switching systems would bring you more happiness than sticking with Canon and complaining? I'm not saying this to be a smartass. I just don't see the point of participating in a hobby that evokes such extreme anger, when the solution (switching to Nikon) is so simple. 

It's not like you're switching spouses It's f'n camera gear for goodness sakes. No one's asking you to put your first born on eBay.

And whether you like it or not: I will not ask for your permission before I complain and I will do so as long as I please and certainly as long as Canon does not finally get their act together and sells me cameras and gear  that is clearly better than any competitive product or at least on par AND not more expensive.

Easy, buddy. I really don't care if you complain. I just find it confusing. As the saying goes, "it takes two to suffer." Your Canon gear is obviously causing you extreme pain and anguish, so the easy solution is getting rid of it.

[Marsu42]

As the saying goes, "it takes two to suffer."

Currently with this thread, there are lots more suffering: Given the participation and the thread title, it's always on top of the main page and many more people will pick up the message :-p

[SteenerMe]

As a canon user for many years and just recently upgraded to the 5D3 Ive got to say it is one bad a$$ camera. Price is relative. My 7D makes wonderful images, but the 5D3 is just on another level. Yes i was happy with the 7d but now much happier with the 5d3. My partner shoots with the nikon D800 and after using it would never switch over. The image quality us neglegable unless peeping. Bit the camera feels like a cheap toy. And dont geet me started on the lenses...