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Author Topic: Canon are you listening...?? NIKON D600  (Read 136939 times)

lola

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Re: Canon are you listening...?? NIKON D600
« Reply #150 on: May 29, 2012, 04:47:22 AM »
Have you checked what DR you are currently using then?
Here is a picture from the weekend - 7DR taken with a 11DR camera.
So what possible benefit would the (so called) 14DR give me?
I believe you're missing the conception of DR... Please read this article for starters.

10fps is far important for me.
Since when 5D3 shoots at 10fps.?

You have to remember that the 14DR is not a straight from the camera 14DR, it is a pp'd image to get it (it is a DxO fabricated number).
Since DxO measures sensor performance, of course they work on post-processed RAW images, what's wrong with that? Don't tell me you're hanging on to JPEG dynamic range in D800-5D3 debate...

Out of the camera the D800 doesn't manage 12DR so in reality the D800 buys very little extra DR.
If by saying "out of the camera" you mean shooting JPEG, that's even worse because if you're leaving how your photos will look to a software engineer, you shouldn't even be discussing dynamic range...

Sorry that reality doesn't match your Nikon fuelled dreams
There's no need to dream of cameras, they are simply tools; just like phones, mp3 players, cigarette lighters, etc... I just go and buy whatever fits my needs... Canon now, Nikon tomorrow, something else the other day... Don't get too attached...
20D, 40D, 5D, 5D Mark II, 1DX, D800 EF 17-40mm. f/4.0 L USM, EF 70-200mm. f/2.8 L USM, EF 24-105mm. f/4 L IS USM, EF 100mm. f/2.8 L IS USM Macro, AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm. f/2.8 G ED VR II, AF Micro Nikkor 60mm f/2.8D

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Re: Canon are you listening...?? NIKON D600
« Reply #150 on: May 29, 2012, 04:47:22 AM »

AvTvM

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Re: Canon are you listening...?? NIKON D600
« Reply #151 on: May 29, 2012, 04:58:13 AM »
Do you drive a Mercedes or a Ford.

the choice here is:  if a "truly excellent" Mercedes cost USD/€ 2.900 and a "quite good" Ford cost USD/€ 3.300 ... why would anyone in their right mind get the Ford?  :o

It really all comes down to Canon's pricing of the 5D3. It is at least 500 too high, no matter which way one looks at it. And even though there are a ton of people who don't care and will buy anyway, that pricing decision is going to bite Canon in the back, as soon as initial market demand is satisfied.

And the pain will be even greater, if/when Nikon comes out with a FF D600 at around 1500. 

lola

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Re: Canon are you listening...?? NIKON D600
« Reply #152 on: May 29, 2012, 05:12:38 AM »
Do you drive a Mercedes or a Ford.

the choice here is:  if a "truly excellent" Mercedes cost USD/€ 2.900 and a "quite good" Ford cost USD/€ 3.300 ... why would anyone in their right mind get the Ford?  :o

It really all comes down to Canon's pricing of the 5D3. It is at least 500 too high, no matter which way one looks at it. And even though there are a ton of people who don't care and will buy anyway, that pricing decision is going to bite Canon in the back, as soon as initial market demand is satisfied.

And the pain will be even greater, if/when Nikon comes out with a FF D600 at around 1500.

I totally agree... If 5D3 was priced somewhere around $2700, there wouldn't even be a D800-5D3 debate... People would simply see them cameras of different segments... Now, along with the expensive new lenses, people who have invested deeply in Canon feel insulted somehow, thinking that Canon, backed up with the market share, is milking them!
20D, 40D, 5D, 5D Mark II, 1DX, D800 EF 17-40mm. f/4.0 L USM, EF 70-200mm. f/2.8 L USM, EF 24-105mm. f/4 L IS USM, EF 100mm. f/2.8 L IS USM Macro, AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm. f/2.8 G ED VR II, AF Micro Nikkor 60mm f/2.8D

Albi86

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Re: Canon are you listening...?? NIKON D600
« Reply #153 on: May 29, 2012, 05:16:00 AM »
Have you checked what DR you are currently using then?
Here is a picture from the weekend - 7DR taken with a 11DR camera.
So what possible benefit would the (so called) 14DR give me?
I believe you're missing the conception of DR... Please read this article for starters.

10fps is far important for me.
Since when 5D3 shoots at 10fps.?

You have to remember that the 14DR is not a straight from the camera 14DR, it is a pp'd image to get it (it is a DxO fabricated number).
Since DxO measures sensor performance, of course they work on post-processed RAW images, what's wrong with that? Don't tell me you're hanging on to JPEG dynamic range in D800-5D3 debate...

Out of the camera the D800 doesn't manage 12DR so in reality the D800 buys very little extra DR.
If by saying "out of the camera" you mean shooting JPEG, that's even worse because if you're leaving how your photos will look to a software engineer, you shouldn't even be discussing dynamic range...

Sorry that reality doesn't match your Nikon fuelled dreams
There's no need to dream of cameras, they are simply tools; just like phones, mp3 players, cigarette lighters, etc... I just go and buy whatever fits my needs... Canon now, Nikon tomorrow, something else the other day... Don't get too attached...

I quite like you! :D

lola

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Re: Canon are you listening...?? NIKON D600
« Reply #154 on: May 29, 2012, 05:28:29 AM »
20D, 40D, 5D, 5D Mark II, 1DX, D800 EF 17-40mm. f/4.0 L USM, EF 70-200mm. f/2.8 L USM, EF 24-105mm. f/4 L IS USM, EF 100mm. f/2.8 L IS USM Macro, AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm. f/2.8 G ED VR II, AF Micro Nikkor 60mm f/2.8D

Marsu42

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Re: Canon are you listening...?? NIKON D600
« Reply #155 on: May 29, 2012, 05:41:24 AM »
It really all comes down to Canon's pricing of the 5D3. It is at least 500 too high, no matter which way one looks at it. And even though there are a ton of people who don't care and will buy anyway, that pricing decision is going to bite Canon in the back, as soon as initial market demand is satisfied.

Not necessarily, since they are free to lower the price once early adopters have gotten it. And for them, Canon could have priced the 5d3 @$4000 because they've got the "it it worth it" debate anyway and it's still less money than the 1dx that might be even too much for well-off amateurs.

And if they lower the price, people will still have the "anchor price" $3500 in mind, resulting in two thoughts: "This must be a great camera" and "It's a bargain, since now it's only $2700".

Jotho

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Re: Canon are you listening...?? NIKON D600
« Reply #156 on: May 29, 2012, 06:23:07 AM »
i think people just say more FPS but more than 90% photos posted on web are either static or landscape  or portraits.. and i don't know how many people really use high speed mode all the time ..i am sure less than 20 percent of the time..but for the sake of arguing they say they use.

Most people wouldn't post their kid pics (playing sport) on the internet, where high FPS would be used. I'm one of them  ;)

I completely agree there. Also I shoot a lot of golf with my friends and I am really really sure that no one else than us wants to see those pics where we are trying to understand our swings etc.

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Re: Canon are you listening...?? NIKON D600
« Reply #156 on: May 29, 2012, 06:23:07 AM »

Albi86

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Re: Canon are you listening...?? NIKON D600
« Reply #157 on: May 29, 2012, 06:40:30 AM »
It really all comes down to Canon's pricing of the 5D3. It is at least 500 too high, no matter which way one looks at it. And even though there are a ton of people who don't care and will buy anyway, that pricing decision is going to bite Canon in the back, as soon as initial market demand is satisfied.

Not necessarily, since they are free to lower the price once early adopters have gotten it. And for them, Canon could have priced the 5d3 @$4000 because they've got the "it it worth it" debate anyway and it's still less money than the 1dx that might be even too much for well-off amateurs.

And if they lower the price, people will still have the "anchor price" $3500 in mind, resulting in two thoughts: "This must be a great camera" and "It's a bargain, since now it's only $2700".

This is true, but not only. There also is a problem of market saturation.
Now the 5D3 is quite a hot seller because everyone who had the need, the firm will and the possibility of buying it is doing so. This includes pros who needed to replace their 5D2 asap, and amateurs... "Canon enthusiats".

Soon enough all these people will have their camera and sales will go down, then there will be warehouse issues and the price will go down to clear the production surplus. If Nikon's D600 is similarly specced and costs a half, then probably this is going to happen even sooner. If Canon is also planning to produce a high-MP camera, I would not be surprised to see the 5D3 priced between D600 and D800, with the new camera above the D800. It would be quite a regular pattern.

As I said, when this camera will cost 2200-2300€ body only, I'll be happy to buy it.

KeithR

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Re: Canon are you listening...?? NIKON D600
« Reply #158 on: May 29, 2012, 07:01:24 AM »
Quote from: lola
[DR is] the very essence of image capture!

Oh, is that right, now?

Firstly: any problems with the DR in these images, from my "lowly" 7D?

This to this.

And

this to this.

I'll answer for you. No, there isn't.

The fact is, DR isn't nearly the unattainable Holy Grail that the whiny, incompetent, malcontent trolls on here would have you believe - and the 5D Mk III is a damn' sight better than the 7D.

Secondly: the base ISO DR advantage of the Noink is just that - the base ISO DR advantage. As soon as you're north of 100 ISO, things are more or less even, and eventually actually become a 5D Mk III advantage as ISO increases.

I never, ever shoot at base ISO, because - for me - shutter speed is always infinitely more important than some notional DR advantage at ISOs I never use: and besides, the images above prove that there's all the DR any reasonable person could reasonably want in any Real World situation - you've just got to know how to get to it, and many don't.

More to the point, I've yet to see the image from any of the whiners that "only" the D800 could produce - and that's because it doesn't exist.

Frames Per Second matters: the wing position of this Short eared owl is "perfect" - not because of any Ninja-like reflexes on my part that allowed me to react to the millisecond to capture the perfect wing position, but because my 7D had the FPS to get just the right moment: I would literally have had only half the likelihood of getting this image if I'd been shooting the D800, and in my experience of bird and sport photography, 6 fps is the lowest frame rate that I would happily work with.

Getting the point yet? The D800 is a nice enough camera, but a complete and utter irrelevance in my world, delivering precisely no useful performance improvements whatsoever for my photography.

The only thing I like about the D800 over the 5D Mk III is the pixel density - but that doesn't get close to outweighing its practical shortfalls in every other context that matters to me.
 
But you're doing what so many on here do: you assume that what you shoot is what everyone else shoots, that what you want from a camera is all anyone could want from a camera, and that this is therefore all that matters when evaluating one body against another.

Well, you're wrong. Completely, utterly, and unequivocally wrong.

briansquibb

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Re: Canon are you listening...?? NIKON D600
« Reply #159 on: May 29, 2012, 07:03:57 AM »
Have you checked what DR you are currently using then?
Here is a picture from the weekend - 7DR taken with a 11DR camera.
So what possible benefit would the (so called) 14DR give me?
I believe you're missing the conception of DR... Please read this article for starters.

10fps is far important for me.
Since when 5D3 shoots at 10fps.?

You have to remember that the 14DR is not a straight from the camera 14DR, it is a pp'd image to get it (it is a DxO fabricated number).
Since DxO measures sensor performance, of course they work on post-processed RAW images, what's wrong with that? Don't tell me you're hanging on to JPEG dynamic range in D800-5D3 debate...

Out of the camera the D800 doesn't manage 12DR so in reality the D800 buys very little extra DR.
If by saying "out of the camera" you mean shooting JPEG, that's even worse because if you're leaving how your photos will look to a software engineer, you shouldn't even be discussing dynamic range...

Sorry that reality doesn't match your Nikon fuelled dreams
There's no need to dream of cameras, they are simply tools; just like phones, mp3 players, cigarette lighters, etc... I just go and buy whatever fits my needs... Canon now, Nikon tomorrow, something else the other day... Don't get too attached...

Thank you - yes I do understand DR, and yes DPP gives you the DR of your photo. I shoot RAW and DPP gives the DR of the raw image.

Shame you didn't read my equipment line - else you would have spotted that I dont have a 5DIII

Dont worry just buy yourself a D800 and imagine you are getting 14DR even though there is no need for 14DR in the majority of images.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 07:09:46 AM by briansquibb »

lola

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Re: Canon are you listening...?? NIKON D600
« Reply #160 on: May 29, 2012, 07:42:01 AM »
Quote from: lola
[DR is] the very essence of image capture!

Oh, is that right, now?

Firstly: any problems with the DR in these images, from my "lowly" 7D?

This to this.

And

this to this.

I'll answer for you. No, there isn't.

The fact is, DR isn't nearly the unattainable Holy Grail that the whiny, incompetent, malcontent trolls on here would have you believe - and the 5D Mk III is a damn' sight better than the 7D.

Secondly: the base ISO DR advantage of the Noink is just that - the base ISO DR advantage. As soon as you're north of 100 ISO, things are more or less even, and eventually actually become a 5D Mk III advantage as ISO increases.

I never, ever shoot at base ISO, because - for me - shutter speed is always infinitely more important than some notional DR advantage at ISOs I never use: and besides, the images above prove that there's all the DR any reasonable person could reasonably want in any Real World situation - you've just got to know how to get to it, and many don't.

More to the point, I've yet to see the image from any of the whiners that "only" the D800 could produce - and that's because it doesn't exist.

Frames Per Second matters: the wing position of this Short eared owl is "perfect" - not because of any Ninja-like reflexes on my part that allowed me to react to the millisecond to capture the perfect wing position, but because my 7D had the FPS to get just the right moment: I would literally have had only half the likelihood of getting this image if I'd been shooting the D800, and in my experience of bird and sport photography, 6 fps is the lowest frame rate that I would happily work with.

Getting the point yet? The D800 is a nice enough camera, but a complete and utter irrelevance in my world, delivering precisely no useful performance improvements whatsoever for my photography.

The only thing I like about the D800 over the 5D Mk III is the pixel density - but that doesn't get close to outweighing its practical shortfalls in every other context that matters to me.
 
But you're doing what so many on here do: you assume that what you shoot is what everyone else shoots, that what you want from a camera is all anyone could want from a camera, and that this is therefore all that matters when evaluating one body against another.

Well, you're wrong. Completely, utterly, and unequivocally wrong.

1. Calling people who are asking for better image quality "whiny, incompetent, malcontent trolls" doesn't make you look/sound pro. That's yesterday's trick.

2. Please excuse me for not sharing your low standards for image quality. The shared photos are probably good memories to you but mean absolutely nothing to me in terms of image quality. I would have to quit the business if I delivered the skull and bicycle quality shots to my clients.

I do understand - and even sometimes feel - the need for a high-fps, fast camera. What I don't understand is; how your need of a high fps camera makes the 5D3 a better camera than the D800.

I kindly ask you to quote the post where I've implied that what I shoot is what everyone else shoots, that what I want from a camera is all anyone could want from a camera, and that this is therefore all that matters when evaluating one body against another.

Please don't defend a company as if it's your family business... That way you're missing the whole point; the point that Canon is selling a camera which is below competition spec-wise and above competition price-wise. I don't recall anyone calling the 5D3 crap...
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briansquibb

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Re: Canon are you listening...?? NIKON D600
« Reply #161 on: May 29, 2012, 07:51:49 AM »

I do understand - and even sometimes feel - the need for a high-fps, fast camera. What I don't understand is; how your need of a high fps camera makes the 5D3 a better camera than the D800.

'Better' is a subjective word that implies personal taste/requirements w.h.y.

If fps is a requirement for a person then if camera delivers the required fps then it is clearly better for that person than one that doesn't

In my case and Keith's clearly we feel the need for fps. Therefore the D800 fails at that point.



lola

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Re: Canon are you listening...?? NIKON D600
« Reply #162 on: May 29, 2012, 07:52:25 AM »
Thank you - yes I do understand DR, and yes DPP gives you the DR of your photo. I shoot RAW and DPP gives the DR of the raw image.

Shame you didn't read my equipment line - else you would have spotted that I dont have a 5DIII

Dont worry just buy yourself a D800 and imagine you are getting 14DR even though there is no need for 14DR in the majority of images.

I never assumed that you had a 5D3, where did that come from?

Oh, I will buy a D800... Just waiting for Photokina, just in case Canon accidentally comes up with some serious camera without stuff like rate button and in-camera HDR that you'd expect Sony or Samsung would come up with... If they don't; then what the hell, a D800 and a Nikkor 70-200 sums up around $5000 and should cover fashion shots just fine for starters...

And by the way, what are the facts you're basing on when saying Nikon's DR is imaginary and there's no need for 14 stops of DR? I'd really like to hear that.
20D, 40D, 5D, 5D Mark II, 1DX, D800 EF 17-40mm. f/4.0 L USM, EF 70-200mm. f/2.8 L USM, EF 24-105mm. f/4 L IS USM, EF 100mm. f/2.8 L IS USM Macro, AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm. f/2.8 G ED VR II, AF Micro Nikkor 60mm f/2.8D

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Re: Canon are you listening...?? NIKON D600
« Reply #162 on: May 29, 2012, 07:52:25 AM »

lola

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Re: Canon are you listening...?? NIKON D600
« Reply #163 on: May 29, 2012, 08:01:43 AM »
'Better' is a subjective word that implies personal taste/requirements w.h.y.

If fps is a requirement for a person then if camera delivers the required fps then it is clearly better for that person than one that doesn't

In my case and Keith's clearly we feel the need for fps. Therefore the D800 fails at that point.

5D3 measuring up to your needs doesn't change the fact that it's an overpriced camera that disappointed many people.
20D, 40D, 5D, 5D Mark II, 1DX, D800 EF 17-40mm. f/4.0 L USM, EF 70-200mm. f/2.8 L USM, EF 24-105mm. f/4 L IS USM, EF 100mm. f/2.8 L IS USM Macro, AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm. f/2.8 G ED VR II, AF Micro Nikkor 60mm f/2.8D

briansquibb

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Re: Canon are you listening...?? NIKON D600
« Reply #164 on: May 29, 2012, 08:03:57 AM »

I never assumed that you had a 5D3, where did that come from?


Look here for the 6fps


[Quote

    10fps is far important for me.

Since when 5D3 shoots at 10fps.?

[/quote]

If a picture does not have 14DR then there is no need for a 14DR camera. So you would be wasting your money buying a D800 just for the DR (which wont show in prints either)

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Re: Canon are you listening...?? NIKON D600
« Reply #164 on: May 29, 2012, 08:03:57 AM »