*UPDATE* Canon Rebel T4i/650D on June 8 [CR3]

[Halocastle]

Since when did a "gimmick" become a bad thing? 

"An ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, especially one designed to attract attention or increase appeal." - Dictionary.com

If a touch screen on a DSLR is a gimmick, great.  I trust it will increase sales and Canon's marketshare.

Gimmick today, copied tomorrow (yes, the first "mirrorless" camera was a gimmick).

[Don Haines]

As to the debate about gimicks....

Vari-angle screens.... My personal opinion is that they are absolutly useless for hand held photography, yet when on a tripod live-view and vari-angle screens become useful, and when the camera is used on the telescope they are vital. In short, my opinion of them depends on how I am using the camera. There is no simple answer.

Touch screens..... look at the screens on a Ipod... you can expect this quality or better.... and just wait a few years till you see ipad apps controlling the camera with the live-view on the ipad.... and if you don't believe this could happen then don't use Ishutter for long exposure camera control and stay away from tethered shooting. In astrophotography we are already there.

These are starting points.... not the future... I remember the first digital camera that I used... 320 by 200 resolution in 16 colors.... now it wouldn't have the resolution to make a thumbnail.... we have to start somewhere and just because it isn't the way Ansel Adams did it, does that mean it is wrong?

[itsnotmeyouknow]

i think screen's are being smudged all redy by noses poking at them wen looking thru the viewfinder. So no diference there.

Valid point but this is the better argument:

...and if you tried to clean the screen quickly without turning it off, who knows what random settings you would change.

Depends what kind of touch screen it is.  If it requires, human heat like the iphone it is unlikely to be an issue. 

[paul13walnut5]

@daveheinzel

Let's give Canon the benefit of having most likely addressed these obvious issues and see what they come out with.

5D3 LCD backlight issue. 5D1 mirror issue. 1D3 AF issue. 50D banding issue. 7D Sandisk issue. 
Lets not assume anything!  Let the usual mugs buy the first ones at 25% more and beta test them for the rest of us.

@Chewngum

the current 18MP sensor is terrible. Not event my best resolving lens produces sharp photos on my 7d, whether it is the AA filter or the sensor itself,

Either your best resolving lenses aren't as sharp as you think, or you haven't set the camera up properly, or you can't use DPP or photoshop.  99% of 7D IQ moans are from people who would have been better sticking to rebels.  The 7D is a camera that needs set up.  Full stop.  Set it up. Learn it. Tweak it.  Much like the 1D users have been doing for years, and you'll get further.  Expect it to behave like a rebel or x0D and you really have wasted your cash.

Nikon users have enjoyed, and enjoy to this day, better JPEGS out the body, price for price point.

Canon users have benefitted more from proper RAW processing, particularly sharpening and luma channel NR.

The 7D gets a poor rep on some forums.  I think users who buy a camera designed to give you choices and to be set up and who fail excercise those choices or to spend time setting it up are the real problem. 

If you own a 7D and aren't getting the results you want:

A) Chuck anything with a slower constant max aperture than f2.8
B) Chuck anything without a focus limiter switch
C) Chuck anything without a USM ring motor
D) Check out the CPS videos on AF set up.
E) Go out and practise on traffic through fences.  Birds through trees.
F) Tweak it.
G) See E
H) See F
I) See G
L) See H
M) Use it in anger. 
N) Try using a zone rather than just using auto select AF
O) Once you've got the hang of zones, try linked points
P) Once you've got the hang of linked points try individual points.

And this is before you get to the post processing side, and post processing is something Canon users have always had to live with.  Not just on the 7D.

[itsnotmeyouknow]

Sorry but A + B are absolute load of rubbish.  Are you seriously saying that someone with a 400 f/5.6L and a 7D should chuck the lens? What utter nonsense.   What would you suggest they get at say 600mm? Does anyone have enough cash to develope a f/2.8 and the strength in their arms to lift the amount of glass that would be required?

Focus limiter?  What about using manual focus if your AF isn't working very quickly?

[paul13walnut5]

A) Faster lenses focus quicker, and f2.8 or faster bring things like the dual cross point sensors into play.  If you aren't getting the AF you want then, yeah, maybe the f5.6 lens has to go.

B) FTM's great, do you really need to focus from 1.5m rather than say 3m?  If not, flick the switch and watch your hit rate rise through the roof.

I play to some degree devils advocate.  My over-riding point remains, there is a type of user who buys a better camera and thinks thats all they have to do.  Their photos aren't any better, or are in some cases worse.  So it must be the camera? Right?

It can't be the shitty slow lenses they use, or the fact they are shooting in auto-af point select mode can it?

I would suggest they concentrate on getting their camera working well at 200 or 300 with a decent lens and some time spent on set up, and then crop if they need to.

A sharp image taken with a 200 and cropped is better than a soft image taken at 600, or 400.  No?

[Chewngum]

@Chewngum

the current 18MP sensor is terrible. Not event my best resolving lens produces sharp photos on my 7d, whether it is the AA filter or the sensor itself,

Either your best resolving lenses aren't as sharp as you think, or you haven't set the camera up properly, or you can't use DPP or photoshop.  99% of 7D IQ moans are from people who would have been better sticking to rebels.  The 7D is a camera that needs set up.  Full stop.  Set it up. Learn it. Tweak it.  Much like the 1D users have been doing for years, and you'll get further.  Expect it to behave like a rebel or x0D and you really have wasted your cash.

Nikon users have enjoyed, and enjoy to this day, better JPEGS out the body, price for price point.

Canon users have benefitted more from proper RAW processing, particularly sharpening and luma channel NR.

The 7D gets a poor rep on some forums.  I think users who buy a camera designed to give you choices and to be set up and who fail excercise those choices or to spend time setting it up are the real problem. 

My sharpness testing was done using macro lenses, far outresolving the sensor, MF, tripod mounted etc... I have tweaked every single setting of the camera to my specifications. Took 2 years to get the settings right. Don't get me wrong its a great camera for everything other than sharpness and contrast. Just imagine the 7d with the 16MP Sony sensor thats in the d7000, that'd be a killer camera. I defended the 7d for a while because i owned one but now i accept that if I'm going to need 100% crops then I won't use it, my 50d and 40d produce more detail than it despite the MP drop. Its just a half done camera, even if they put the 40d sensor in it I'd of been happy, but the 7d sensor does not wow in any way...its adequate but could have easily been so much better. Sharpness is achievable with the 7d, but only when you downsize.

I think its funny that you 100% assume user error, God forbid a person doesn't have the same standards as you and actually isn't happy with what you're happy with. I sold my 7d because i gave it enough time but i can repeatedly get better results with much cheaper options.

[Daniel Flather]

...the EF 40mm f/2.8 pancake.

I'm interested if this has anything to do with mirror-less.

[preppyak]

Some would argue that the flip out screen is not a gimmick and is actually practical in some applications.

As someone who does video, I'd agree with you. I don't need it, as I could get every shot I now get with my 60D on my 50D, but it makes some things more convenient.

But, I say it as a bad thing on the T3i because they put it on a T2i and changed nothing else for 95% of end users (the other 5% being those that use slave flash on a T3i, and that is probably an overestimation). If it was such a necessary item, why wasn't it on the camera's earlier; they've had the tech for long time. They just suddenly needed something to differentiate it and charge a premium...

The touch-screen might actually be useful since the button arrangement has always been awful on the Ti cameras, they're desire to include very few buttons might work. We'll see.

I'm interested if this has anything to do with mirror-less.

The general consensus is that any Canon mirror-less won't be EF mount...since the point of mirror-less is to be smaller, and the EF mount makes the camera about twice as large as it'd need to be. More likely its just another light, portable lens like the 50mm f/1.8.

[Marsu42]

Some would argue that the flip out screen is not a gimmick and is actually practical in some applications.

That depends on the definition. The standard 7d's and enthusiasts' definition would be "only the rebels have it, it can't be good, pro or l33t" (this seems strange to me because the flipout screen has no drawbacks whatsoever, only potential advantages). Like a lightweight body is a gimmick, because a real man's camera couldn't be carried by a woman :-p

[neuroanatomist]

The touch-screen might actually be useful since the button arrangement has always been awful on the Ti cameras, they're desire to include very few buttons might work. We'll see.

I just hope it's a decent touchscreen.  My Canon Vixia HF M41 has a touchscreen, and while I love the camcorder for the most part, the touchscreen is a real pain - insensitive and mushy.

[Marsu42]

I just hope it's a decent touchscreen.

What's "decent" and for what users - you won't get a 650d anyway :-p ? Since it's aimed at amateurs that don't need quick changes (or they'd get a body with buttons) and given the expected price tag ~550d ~600d and <60d it's doubtful if a top-grade touchscreen is either economical or really appreciated.

[paul13walnut5]

@chewngum

I think its funny that you 100% assume user error

I didn't.  If you care to re-read my post you shall confirm that I actually assumed 99% user error.  Perhaps you are amongst the remaining 1% who can actually work and learn a complex camera, understands post-processing and just happened to get a dud.

Otherwise I really don't see whats funny.  A lot of inept and impatient photographers with slow lenses let marketing fool them into thinking that a more sophisticated and accurate body properly set up shall yield them better pictures? 

Boom boom!  I'm hear all week ladies and gentlemen!

[paul13walnut5]

My sharpness testing was done using macro lenses, far outresolving the sensor

Which macro lenses, and how do you know they far 'outresolve' the sensor?  I can't think of a camera with a higher pixel density than the 18MP APS-C other than the Nikon D3200.  Maybe the D800E, I would need to check.  So I can only take it as fact that you've also tested your lens on a Nikon D3200 or a Nikon D800E and it's done much much better.

I'm sorry you didn't get on with the 7D.  I use mine with a Sigma 70mm macro (I don't know how the 100mm f2.8 IS performs, but prior to this lens a good copy of the sigma resolved above the canon macros in every test I checked)

Perhaps you are using too small an aperture and don't fully appreciate aperture limited diffraction which is more pronounced on smaller sensors and on cameras with higher resolutions.  Blame physics.

Or perhaps you were one of the 5% of folk who bothered setting the camera up properly, but were one of the 5% of that 5% who got a dud.

No, it must be the camera.  Has to be the camera.  Couldn't possibly be technique or settings.

Joker:  I find my 7D works a treat with one of the sharpest macro lenses out there.
Fall-Guy:  Do you use AF?
Joker:  No, I use a manfrotto micro adjust rail, tripod and the lens scale!  Boom Boom!
Fall-Guy: Are you here all week?
Joker:  Yup!

[Chewngum]

My sharpness testing was done using macro lenses, far outresolving the sensor

Which macro lenses, and how do you know they far 'outresolve' the sensor?  I can't think of a camera with a higher pixel density than the 18MP APS-C other than the Nikon D3200. 

Also you said "Either your best resolving lenses aren't as sharp as you think, or you haven't set the camera up properly, or you can't use DPP or photoshop."

Hmmm, if you give 3 options, all of which are user error, then that means you think its user error...no room for movement in your statement sorry. If you ever try a reasonable copy of the sigma 150 macro you will know what i am talking about when it comes to sharpness. The 7d did not render as much detail as the 50D despite having the same crop factor and more MPs. To explain it further, ever gotten a misaligned lens such that every shot taken with it appears slightly soft...I get that with every lens at every aperture on the 7d, and I have bought three 7d's over the course of 2 years and they all produced the same shots. So that begs the question, why did i buy more if i wasn't happy with the first...I was shooting sports where i was outputting at 10mp, downsizing makes the 7d appear a much better camera than it is.