Used 60D or new 650D/T4i?

[Marsu42]

As I understand it, the T4i and 60D are practically identical in performance now, with only a few differences between them. Do the T4i's new features (DIGIC 5, touchscreen, stereo sound) make up for losing the 60D's top LCD, better constructed body, and better battery life?

No, they aren't. The 60d has, apart from the mentioned battery life, better built/sealing, top lcd & back dial at least ...
a) larger viewfinder & pentaprism
b) 1/8000s shutter,
c) 1/250s flash sync (even better than the 5d3)
d) larger buffer and better fps in raw for continuous shots (the 650d fps rate is for making multi-shot jpeg noise
 reduction feasible)
e) runs magic lantern NOW (a stable digic5 port imho will take a year or so)

Ask yourself if you want video af & a touchscreen, or else get a 60d or if you have money & time to spare wait for the 70d which will have afma & mag body that was cut from the 60d to make the 7d look better.

[preppyak]

The T4i is much more friendly for video users with auto AF.  The T4i is basically a combined HD camcorder and a SLR, which is a good value and it reduces the amount of gear you'd need to do both tasks.

We assume this. Has anyone posted video of the T4i auto-focus? Cause it could be crap for all we know.

Battery life is so much better for SLRs compared to P&S.  If that concerns you, get a spare or two.

Or get the 60D, where you get 3x the battery life. For an entire weekend backpacking trip, you'll never need to change batteries with a 60D.

As was mentioned, the 60D still has a lot of nice elements over the T4i, and Magic Lantern, which is useful for its focus peaking, etc when trying to use the AF. You can get the body for $640+tax from the Canon Loyalty Program, and I believe the 18-135 kit is like $830+tax. Like you said, new, they are about the same price as the T4i, and just from the ergonomics alone I think its worth the upgrade.

I believe Canon Loyalty is also letting you add an extra lens at 20% off, so you can look through and see if there are others you'd want. I think most of the L lenses are excluded. http://shop.usa.canon.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/subCategory_10051_10051_-1_22751?WT.mc_id=C126149#

[locke42]

What is Magic Lantern? I've only skimmed a few sites and its wiki, but I gather that it adds some significant video features?

[preppyak]

What is Magic Lantern? I've only skimmed a few sites and its wiki, but I gather that it adds some significant video features?

Yeah, focus peaking is nice (allows you to see what is in focus), as are some of the other add-ons. It does some nice stuff for photos too. If you've got a Ti camera, it allows you to use the multiples of 160 for video. It allows you to control ISO in 1/3 steps, which is the only way you can use ISO 160, 320, and 640.

You can also control the video quality, you can raise the bit-rate (higher quality) or lower it (allowing you to record longer). There are a million other features, but those are the big ones I've used

[boateggs]

Correct me if im wrong, but the T4i will be like other rebels and only allow full stops in ISO and shutter speed while the 60D will allow 1/3 stop increases.  This and the ergonomics are why I am waiting for the 70D (I am no hurry and expect to wait until spring)

[Marsu42]

Or get the 60D, where you get 3x the battery life. For an entire weekend backpacking trip, you'll never need to change batteries with a 60D.

... unless you use a lot of video and/or IS which drains power faster - but still, I only have one battery for the 60d and it's sufficient for a day shooting 1000 shots+

There are a million other features, but those are the big ones I've used

Magic Lantern is the killer-feature firmware addon that digic4 Canons except the 7d have over the Nikon & Sony - it's a no-brainer for video (tune bitrate, modify fps, hdr video (!!!),  ...), and very useful for stills (focus stacking, focus peaking, timelapses, trap focus, audio remote shot, unlimited bracketing, motion detection, ...)

http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Unified

[locke42]

I asked this but I don't think it was answered:

About the DIGIC5's JPEG processing abilities (which are pretty good based on what I can see from DPReview's test shots on the G1X versus the T3i/60D/7D, can I get similar JPEG image quality from using third party programs? And if so, how? (I have Adobe CS5 Suite.)

[Marsu42]

can I get similar JPEG image quality from using third party programs? And if so, how? (I have Adobe CS5 Suite.)

My three step guide to ok pictures from the 18mp sensor:
1. shoot raw (not exceeding iso 800, max iso 1600), expose to the right avoiding highlight clipping
2. import into adobe raw 7.x (Lightroom 4 or updated PS) and use PV2012, recover highlights up to -100 ... 0,5 ev of dynamic range gained!
3. denoise only so much that your *final* output size shows the noise you can live with

[aznable]

I asked this but I don't think it was answered:

About the DIGIC5's JPEG processing abilities (which are pretty good based on what I can see from DPReview's test shots on the G1X versus the T3i/60D/7D, can I get similar JPEG image quality from using third party programs? And if so, how? (I have Adobe CS5 Suite.)

if you are very good on taking thepics at perfect exposure, you can rely on  jpgs.

if you are like me, better to post process the raw files

[locke42]

Okay, now I'm VERY torn. Just as I was all set to get the 60D, too.

I just played around with a Sony NEX-7, and that thing was sweet. And a hell of a lot lighter than the 60D. More expensive, but still around my price range. Image quality seems to be on par, based on DPReview. The NEX-7 has better noise reduction for JPEGs, but the 60D seems to be a tad better in RAWs.

I'd planned on getting the 60D with the 15-85mm USM lens, for a total of about $1600; the Sony is about $1200 for the body and the 18-200mm lens I'm looking at is $700.

The T4i and 70D are basically off the table now.

[Marsu42]

Okay, now I'm VERY torn. Just as I was all set to get the 60D, too.

Chances are that the 60d with a basic zoom lens is just your entrance fee into the expensive Canon dlsr world. Having more experience after a year or so, you'll want flashes, more lenses, filters, ... are you ok with buying that stuff and carrying it around? If not, don't get a Canon dslr, unlike Nikon (have a look at the d7000!) Canon is going premium price-wise, and other systems are more complete off the shelf.

Having said that, I don't regret getting the 60d, very usable and the 18mp sensor is ok if you can work around its problems. But as I wrote above dlsrs like this only shine with adequate lenses, I got the 100L (800€+50€ filter) and the 70-300L (1400€+50€ filter) for starters next to a basic flash 430ex2 (220€).

[locke42]

I don't really have an addictive personality. I'm much more of a utilitarian, i.e. whatever gets the job done easiest. In my case, I won't be doing any kind of studio photography. I'm a traveler, so I need something that can be used on the road. Like I said, 90% of the time my usage will be during family events and outdoors trips. The NEX-7 seems to be a good alternative to extremely heavy and bulky DSLRs in that regard, even if lens selection is somewhat lacking.

GAAAHHHH! I hate having to choose between two great but different products.

[Marsu42]

GAAAHHHH! I hate having to choose between two great but different products.

Next to the bulk of a dslr, the learning curve of a eos body is steep but still you'll have to learn to handle it if you didn't do this before - do you want this and have the time for it? I'm saying this because I think that using a real dslr (like the 60d, unlike the 1000d) in full-auto mode all the time is a waste, though you can use it as a point and shoot, too. People even use the 5d3 for this :-o

Somehow you're usage profile rather points at the Sony I'm sorry to say. I'd never get it because I hate electronic viewfinders, but if you even consider it and have tried it in a shop next to a Canon, maybe the smaller, simpler camera is the better option if you're ready to loose everything this great hobby has to offer :->

[PictoPete]

If you get 60d body thru CLP and the 15-85/vari lens then you end up paying..
$640 for body
$512 for lens

So far $1152 + tax where applicable.
You can snag a 430EXII speedlite for $192 as well. $1254

That lens above is really all you'll need for anything, assuming a general walk-around lens. It gets great marks across the board on all the lens reviews. The flash isn't the highest-end one, but it will DEFINITELY give you lighting options where you were previously limited.

The only gotcha with the CLP discount is that you can only get lens and flash discounts if you order with a body.

Fret not about them being REFURBISHED. Some are returns. Some are overstock. Some are (barely-used) open-stock. The point is, I have no problem trusting CANON the camera-maker of this very hardware to assure that it is up to specification like a new product. So they clean everything and replace anything necessary to get it up to running as a new item would. They offer the 90-day warranty vs 1 year not as a lack of confidence but simply because it's the minimum required by law and also to give incentive to buy their NEW-listed product at the higher price if you demand the full year. The cameras look new in appearance and their packaging is the same save for a generic Canon box.

You will not be disappointed getting a refurb unit from Canon.

--

Magic Lantern for Canon dSLRs is amazing. Even if you aren't pushing cinematography as a hobby, it will give you options for when you do want to exploit video and photo even. You have nothing to lose.

[locke42]

I've decided to get the 60D. The NEX-7, I've learned, can't do some of the types of photography that I had intended on learning, i.e. long exposure and time lapse. Plus, the lens selection sucked. I hadn't realized how much it sucked until I tried looking for alternatives to its kit lens.

I already know how to use a DSLR in full manual mode, especially the 60D because my cousin got one a few months ago (a waste, IMO; he's the kind of person who doesn't have the patience to learn the manual controls, and every time I've seen him use it I cringe because it's always in automatic). I always used my old SX10 IS in full manual mode, and even with the NEX-7, when I looked at it in the store, one of the biggest draws for me was the fact that, in some ways, it offered even finer manual control and more feedback information than the 60D did (the triple dials make it really easy to change exposure settings in full manual mode, and its buttons are very customizable).

So, anyway, 60D it is.