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Author Topic: Canon EOS 7D Firmware Version 2 Coming Soon  (Read 55783 times)

kdsand

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Firmware Version 2 Coming Soon
« Reply #135 on: June 10, 2012, 04:50:06 PM »
Its a bit difficult but I try to not look a gift horse in the mouth.  :D

To some extent the existance of magic lantern must certainly have made Canon respond to potential back lash if a third party made any of these existing optimizations available to the public.

I am cheap at times but I will gladly pay extra to ensure I have complete functionality and the most up to date software available.
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Re: Canon EOS 7D Firmware Version 2 Coming Soon
« Reply #135 on: June 10, 2012, 04:50:06 PM »

briansquibb

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Firmware Version 2 Coming Soon
« Reply #136 on: June 10, 2012, 04:55:20 PM »
Its a bit difficult but I try to not look a gift horse in the mouth.  :D

To some extent the existance of magic lantern must certainly have made Canon respond to potential back lash if a third party made any of these existing optimizations available to the public.

I am cheap at times but I will gladly pay extra to ensure I have complete functionality and the most up to date software available.

That is a bit like saying that you prefer to pay for ACR rather than use the free DPP - nothing wrong with that. Nikon users have to pay so perhaps that is the model you would prefer?


kdsand

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Firmware Version 2 Coming Soon
« Reply #137 on: June 10, 2012, 05:18:57 PM »
Its a bit difficult but I try to not look a gift horse in the mouth.  :D

To some extent the existance of magic lantern must certainly have made Canon respond to potential back lash if a third party made any of these existing optimizations available to the public.

I am cheap at times but I will gladly pay extra to ensure I have complete functionality and the most up to date software available.

That is a bit like saying that you prefer to pay for ACR rather than use the free DPP - nothing wrong with that. Nikon users have to pay so perhaps that is the model you would prefer?

 I don't see it ever coming down to actual choice but I would pay a bit more up front if it could guarantee full optimization support.

 It would be nice if there was more incentive for canon to add feature sets.
I definitely have to give cannon kudos for having decent products that come to market with a reasonably ( surprisingly) few amount of bugs. Releasing an update upgrade for software like this is definitely a double edge sword for a company like Canon. Well that goes for most companies - though cell phone companies seem to try to do everything in their power to screw up o.s. updates.

 I am all for Canon, I think it is awesome.  :-[  Admittedly I have to fight back a bit of fanizm at times.

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zampa

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Firmware Version 2 Coming Soon
« Reply #138 on: June 10, 2012, 05:23:41 PM »
Talking abouth the hidden "features", have any of you out there with a 7D tried this:
Take away the lens, pull on the front plastic black cover.
Put camera in manual mode, 1/500 (no f since lens is not on :)
Set the high burst photo mode (8fps).
Insert a CF (but you can do also without, if C.Fn is set properly)
Simply push and keep down the shutter button.
You will hear the familiar 8fps burst sound.
Cover with your hand the viewfinder (so that there is no light coming inside the camera - front is already covered by the cap).
Repeat the burst.
Hear... wtf??? 3fps???
Tested with 10+ Canon 7D, with every kind of firmware. If lens fitted, AF off.
It seems that if the subject is black or there is no light, the camera cpu takes more time to calculate the correct exposure (that is WELL documented inside the user manual, fps reduction in case of difficult exposure).
But if I am in FULL MANUAL I don't need exposure calculation, simply my 8fps.
It could be a non issue, but if u are taking pictures of a black motorbike or during the night or in low level and you need the full fps, that could be not fair.
And I wonder why there are no informations about that over the net (for my job is really an issue!)
Cheers

Marco
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 05:26:46 PM by zampa »

Marsu42

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Firmware Version 2 Coming Soon
« Reply #139 on: June 10, 2012, 05:50:27 PM »
I think 'crippling' is rather strong. 'Conservative limitations' might be a better way of putting it.

As far as I see it, crippled is the correct word - Canon doesn't hesitate to advertise weather sealing with (*) your mileage may vary, of course they could do this for other features too.

But crippling a product is not necessarily a bad thing, but standard industry practice. In many non-high-end cpu, there are disabled cores that would work just fine, Intel even managed to introduce a paid feature to re-enable them by software just like Canon did now for free.

Limiting the full potential of the hardware simply gives the manufacturer the opportunity to place and price products according to the market - and now Canon thinks that the 7d needs a feature boost to stay somewhat competitive against Nikon.

Halocastle

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Firmware Version 2 Coming Soon
« Reply #140 on: June 10, 2012, 05:51:51 PM »
Quote from: Canon's Marketing Team
"Oh crap, we've got all these old 7D bodies lying around that aren't selling (because of the 5D2 getting cheaper, or the D3200, K5, NEX-7, or whatever), and we need to get rid of them before the 7D mk 2 is announced in a few months".
"I know, let's take the firmware from the new 7D2, it won't cost us anything much to port it to the 7D, demand for the 7D will pick back up again and help us clear stocks before we drop the 7D2."

Or am I too cynical?

Canon doesn't sell items on consignment and there is no stock.  They take orders from vendors, most of them pre-paid, then they produce the items and ship them off.  Canon doesn't have to get rid of anything.  That's on the vendor and the vendor orders want their customers want regardless of current stock.

Vendors get special pricing that they later mark-up.  This margin allows them to reduce prices when a new model--aah!  Do I actually have to explain this?

And how do you know this?

How do you NOT know this? Where did you go to school?

briansquibb

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Firmware Version 2 Coming Soon
« Reply #141 on: June 10, 2012, 06:38:26 PM »
I think 'crippling' is rather strong. 'Conservative limitations' might be a better way of putting it.

As far as I see it, crippled is the correct word - Canon doesn't hesitate to advertise weather sealing with (*) your mileage may vary, of course they could do this for other features too.

But crippling a product is not necessarily a bad thing, but standard industry practice. In many non-high-end cpu, there are disabled cores that would work just fine, Intel even managed to introduce a paid feature to re-enable them by software just like Canon did now for free.

Limiting the full potential of the hardware simply gives the manufacturer the opportunity to place and price products according to the market - and now Canon thinks that the 7d needs a feature boost to stay somewhat competitive against Nikon.

When the 7D came out it met its specifications with the CF technology of its time. It now has updated the firmware, free of charge, to match the current CF technology. This is not a marketing ploy.

Cripling is a very strong word that does not infer what you seem to be saying.

I am sorry to see that your hyper cynacism of anything Canon has got in the way of logic


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Re: Canon EOS 7D Firmware Version 2 Coming Soon
« Reply #141 on: June 10, 2012, 06:38:26 PM »

Marsu42

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Firmware Version 2 Coming Soon
« Reply #142 on: June 10, 2012, 07:02:39 PM »
I am sorry to see that your hyper cynacism of anything Canon has got in the way of logic

I'm sorry to say you simply ignored what I wrote - I specifically said limiting hardware is standard practice for *any* brand, and you're using this as an opportunity to flame a Canon enthusiast about being cynical towards Canon? Please think again, this doesn't make any sense at all, even if we both aren't sure about the real cause of the original limitation.

But with your current attitude: Whatever you say - I really do hope for you you'll cool down a bit sooner or later. And knowing your strong feelings towards the brand, I'm not taking it personal but as a sign of a committed Canon fan-base.

theswedishsportsshooter

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Firmware Version 2 Coming Soon
« Reply #143 on: June 10, 2012, 07:09:02 PM »
I think 'crippling' is rather strong.
...
Just imagine 4 years ago if they had said it could write 20 RAW in a burst, and as the CF cards were too slow it only achieved 15 - that would have raised a class action and a long and loud reaction.
...

There is no connection between buffer size and card-speed whatsoever.
If the max buffer size is 15, it takes 15 images to fill the buffer.
if it´s 20, well then you can take 20 images before the buffer is filled.

The impact of the card write speed is how fast the camera can empty the buffer memory, and that impacts how fast you can start to shoot again.
With some really fast card you can "extend" the buffer size.
But that really has to do with the fact that the camera can empty the buffer faster to a fast card, than to a slow one.

There is a major reason to why Canon (and Nikon as well) "cripple" cameras in this way.
They want us to buy more expansive cameras.
It´s just the same thing with the "voice tag function" only found on the 1D-series.
With both 7D and 5D mkII and 5D mkIII you have the necessary microphone on the cameras, so what's needed is only some adjustment of the firmware.
Canon is not implementing this feature only of one simple reason.
They want those needing "voice tagging" to buy the 1D-series.

briansquibb

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Firmware Version 2 Coming Soon
« Reply #144 on: June 10, 2012, 07:34:58 PM »
I think 'crippling' is rather strong.
...
Just imagine 4 years ago if they had said it could write 20 RAW in a burst, and as the CF cards were too slow it only achieved 15 - that would have raised a class action and a long and loud reaction.
...

There is no connection between buffer size and card-speed whatsoever.
If the max buffer size is 15, it takes 15 images to fill the buffer.
if it´s 20, well then you can take 20 images before the buffer is filled.


The new firmware does not mention buffer size but IMPROVED RAW MAXIMUM BURST - a totally different issue.

Filling the buffer and emptying are asynchronous processes. If you can empty the buffer faster than the buffer fills then there is no limit to the burst size (apart from filling the card). The buffer doesn't fill up before it starts writing.

The current max burst is 15 RAW before the buffer is full, the new firmware is going to increase this to 26. This is IMO due to the increased write speed of the CF cards

A cause for celebration rather than criticism I think.


dr croubie

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Firmware Version 2 Coming Soon
« Reply #145 on: June 10, 2012, 07:36:32 PM »
For everyone arguing back and forth over the buffer size update, I suggest you read this thread at TDP (if noone's linked to it before). In particular see my post on the last page and the test of the Pretec card.

Basically, the tl;dr of it is that on my 7D, with the crappiest slowest oldest card I could find, I got a RAW buffer size of 20 images before it started slowing down, with a fast card I got 22 images (because the buffer was emptying faster with a faster card). Given how long it took before the camera was usable again after the burst with the Pretec card, I would say that it only managed to write one or maybe 1/2 an image to the card in the 3 seconds before it slowed down, so the buffer should at least be 18-19 images deep.

And the 7D manual states only 15.

So, for one, I think that the rating of 15 shots was conservative at best. Yes, I was pointing at a white wall. Yes, it was only iso100. Yes, if I had the ISO up at 3200 and was pointing at something detailed like a grassy field, the RAW images would be bigger and you'd get less images per buffer.
Still, they could just as easily have written 18 or even 20 for the max buffer depth 3 years ago when it was released, with an "*under optimal conditions" disclaimer. Instead, they were conservative and wrote 15 as quite possibly the absolute minimum under any conditions.
So with no firmware improvements at all, I'd say it's not a rise from 15-25, it's more a rise from 19-25.

Maybe they've done absolutely nothing to the firmware (besides adding support for the new cards), and they're just being more unrealistic with specs, and you need the latest 120MB/s card to get 25 shots, and the rest of us will see no improvements whatsoever?


Now, they haven't unlocked any "hidden ram" or anything. What kind of company puts in 2gb of ram, sells it with the pricetage saying 1gb of ram, and then 3 years later suddenly gives you a gift by unlocking that extra 1gb, for no charge, when they can't get any more money out of you, just to give you a warm fuzzy feeling?
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Ever."


What they may have done is just re-written a few algorithms, coding in firmware and a bit of optimisation can go a long way. Maybe before, it waited until it had written a whole RAW file to the card before it released the buffer space to be overwritten, and now it starts overwriting the file in the buffer as it empties? Maybe they've had some coding-efficiency-expert going through and turning every 10 lines of code into 9 lines? It can happen.

As to why they're going to release it to a 3-year-old camera now, I don't know. The only reason they would do it is to shift more units. Because they've got inventory that they need to clear before the 7D2 drops soon? Because the 7D2 is going to take a while and they still need the 7D to compete with the cheaper and in-some-ways better K5 and D7000 for another year? Who knows.

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
When (I hope not 'if') it gets released, i'm first guinea-pig in line.
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briansquibb

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Firmware Version 2 Coming Soon
« Reply #146 on: June 10, 2012, 07:59:57 PM »
As to why they're going to release it to a 3-year-old camera now, I don't know.

Read this for CF performance

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/camera_wb_multi_page.asp?cid=6007-10294


The 7D is a fast entry level sports camera - hurrah for more, free performance.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 08:02:02 PM by briansquibb »

dr croubie

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Firmware Version 2 Coming Soon
« Reply #147 on: June 10, 2012, 08:06:22 PM »
Quote from: Canon's Marketing Team
"Oh crap, we've got all these old 7D bodies lying around that aren't selling (because of the 5D2 getting cheaper, or the D3200, K5, NEX-7, or whatever), and we need to get rid of them before the 7D mk 2 is announced in a few months".
"I know, let's take the firmware from the new 7D2, it won't cost us anything much to port it to the 7D, demand for the 7D will pick back up again and help us clear stocks before we drop the 7D2."

Or am I too cynical?

Canon doesn't sell items on consignment and there is no stock.  They take orders from vendors, most of them pre-paid, then they produce the items and ship them off.  Canon doesn't have to get rid of anything.  That's on the vendor and the vendor orders want their customers want regardless of current stock.

Vendors get special pricing that they later mark-up.  This margin allows them to reduce prices when a new model--aah!  Do I actually have to explain this?

And how do you know this?

How do you NOT know this? Where did you go to school?

Well, I for one have both an Electronic Engineering and Economics degree. (not that I've used the economics degree for everyday work, engineering is more interesting).

Anyway, yes, you're right. Manufacturing on-demand and letting the vendors take the stockpiles is one way of running a manufacturing business. Maybe Canon have no warehouses whatsoever besides how much it takes to load up a truck and then off it goes. It's possible, some companies do it.
But do we know that's how Canon works? Unless anyone here is a Logistics officer for Canon, all of this is speculation.

Maybe they wait until they've got orders for 10,000 units, then they do a run of 10,000. The next 1 unit that gets ordered has to wait for another 9,999 orders before they'll start another run. (which is what you seem to be suggesting).

Maybe for every 10,000 units they make, it costs them as much as the proceeds from 9000 (for example) sales. So as soon as they get 9000 orders, they'll do a run of 10,000, the last 1000 is pure profit that can tide them over to fill orders until they've got another 9000 orders to justify a new run.

Both of those first two options presume a few things: that they are a fiscally very conservative company. In these economic times, it's possible. It guarantees no losses. But it constrains profits. More likely, most companies operate under the next scenario:

Say they still have to sell 9000 units to make the same money back as making 10,000 units. At some point between 1 and 8999 units, there's going to be forecasting, a gamble. If they wait until they've got 5000 orders, then do a run of 10,000, they're taking a gamble that they can sell the other 4000 to break even. In more optimistic times, if they're risk-takers, or if forecasters can see that those 4000 extra will sell 'eventually', maybe they'll lower their point to doing a run of 10,000 when they have 3000 orders, and take a gamble on selling 6000. If they're pessimistic, risk-averse, if the economy is forecast to shrink, they may wait for 8000 orders, do a run of 10,000, hope they can sell at least 1000 more to break even, and they've got another 1000 as buffer stock.

More extremely, they take more gambles and risks, they produce their run of 10,000 before they've even got 1 order. That's what they do for new models, certainly. It's less likely for higher-end models and for older models, the 7D is a bit of both. Maybe they've taken that gamble a few times, and they've got boxes piling up they need to shift. Maybe the 5D3 has killed 7D sales, maybe it was the K5 or D7000 or just another recession. Either way, maybe this firmware is a way to shift those boxes.




And even if it's the first option, that they don't produce those 10,000 until enough vendors have made orders and prepaid for 10,000, and those 10,000 are now sitting in the vendors' warehouses, as you suggest. You don't think those vendors will happily sit on the stock and keep dropping prices in a hope that someone will eventually buy it? Those vendors should know when new models are coming, they have to make room.
Imagine a salesman for Canon, talking to a vendor, "Hi, thanks for ordering those 10,000 7Ds last week, oh by the way, you're going to have to sell them below cost because the 7D mk2 is coming out next week, too bad".

That vendor is not going to be happy. They're going to be more conservative buying the next model, or indeed anything else from Canon. Sure, they'll have to still buy them because the customers want them, but you have to keep your vendors happy, it's called building up a good business relationship.

Imagine then, if Canon annoy someone with real clout, like B+H, too much. B+H may just start putting more and more ads for Nikon on their site, put them up higher when you search by 'most relevant', put Nikon on sale more often, whatever. It happens. You don't make profit in this world without selling to consumers, and if your distributors are much happier selling the competition's product, you won't make much profit.
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Re: Canon EOS 7D Firmware Version 2 Coming Soon
« Reply #147 on: June 10, 2012, 08:06:22 PM »

DB

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Firmware Version 2 Coming Soon
« Reply #148 on: June 10, 2012, 08:32:30 PM »
My 7D had issues with Sandisk UDMA Extreme CF, Canon didn't want to know, there wasn't a problem.  Forums verified I was not alone.  Not a problem.  I actually bought my T2i for video interviews because I could not depend on 7D and my larger cards (was fine with older 4gb nonUDMA 30mb/s extremes)

Then in fix 1.2.x (3 I think) canon announced they had fixed this problem.  They wouldn't acknowledge the problem, they couldn't fix my camera in service, then they launched a new firmware that proved me and many others were actually correct.

My point is, I hope the new firmware doesn't fuck about with the CF stability my 7D has enjoyed since 1.2.3

Paul, don't worry, that's why there is always eos7d-v201.exe or eos7d-v205.exe ...and so on...

DB

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Firmware Version 2 Coming Soon
« Reply #149 on: June 10, 2012, 08:34:17 PM »
Read this for CF performance

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/camera_wb_multi_page.asp?cid=6007-10294


The 7D is a fast entry level sports camera - hurrah for more, free performance.

Brian, those results do seem to suggest that it is 99.99% CF card performance and precious little to do with the internal memory buffer

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Firmware Version 2 Coming Soon
« Reply #149 on: June 10, 2012, 08:34:17 PM »